Author and playwright Laramie Dean (Black Forest) joins me for The Play Typer Guy's Second Annual Halloween Special! Last year, we paid tribute to the late Lara Parker, who played the complicated witch Angelique on the 1960s Dark Shadows TV series. This time, we’re celebrating more witchy women in media, including the weird sisters from Agatha All Along, starring Kathryn Hahn, Aubrey Plaza, Sasheer Zamata, and Patti LuPone. Yes, there are spoilers.
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Transcribed excerpts from our conversation below:
LARAMIE: Let’s talk about evil witches. Let’s get into that. My very first favorite character ever was the Wicked Witch of the West. And I do love Wicked. I do, but the kids, my students, will often conflate all versions of the Wicked Witch of the West with this musical character who I feel was severely altered from what she was in Gregor Maguire’s book, but also the [L. Frank Baum] novels.
I love the Wicked Witch of the West from the movie because she’s terrifying. She’s rabid. That’s the whole movie with laser-like focus. She’s frightening as hell, and I wasn’t scared of her when I was a kid. I wanted to be her, so I think that is where my fascination with witches comes from. And definitely Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty. Disney released Sleeping Beauty on video when I was probably seven or eight. I already knew her from Disney storybooks and other things. The horns were cool and her milky green skin. Or blue, whatever it was. But I definitely do like my witches to be terrifying.
SER: There’s a great moment in The Wizard of Oz. I remember watching this as a kid for the first time, and it was a true “hiding behind the couch” moment. Dorothy and the others are on the road and the Witch is there. They don’t know she’s there. She’s hiding behind a tree, and it’s care because she’s present and they don’t know. Of course, later I would realize that’s suspense.
I love that [Agatha Harkness] is spooky, as well, and as you were saying about evil witches. What has been that appeal? We get the fairy tale stories about eating babies, but obviously, a lot of it is just we’re really scared of women who live alone. We’re scared of Jewish women, practicing a different religion. We’re scared of Black women with their voodoo. [Agatha All Along] plays on this, as well, where the implication is that a white man took this Black witch’s powers [Jennifer Kale, played by Sasheer Zamata].
But Agatha is someone character who has embraced who she is, in spite of society. Even her own mother says, “You’re bad. You’ve always been bad. You’ve always wanted the wrong thing.”
We can’t trust her, but that makes it very compelling to watch, to see what she’s going to do next. What is she up to? What is her next game?
LARAMIE: So far they haven’t tried to turn [Agatha] into a [good person.] They haven't [redeemed] her. There’s s that moment where she looks at Billy and says, “You’re just like your mother.” Kathryn Hahn, you know from Parks and Recreation when she was Jen Barkley. It’s funny because the characters are so different, but they’re Kathryn Hahn. I mean, Jen Barkley doesn't care. She’s like, “I’m going to tell you this because I don’t care enough to lie.” That’s Agatha.
Agatha’s queer energy …
SER: The actor Joe Locke plays Billy Maximoff, the Scarlet Witch’s son, and he’s queer, like he is in the comics. It’s just wonderful to see that, as someone who’s 50 years old and grew up in a time when that wouldn’t have happened. Now, in certain ways, it’s taken for granted. That’s not what the show is even about.
LARAMIE: Which is interesting because I’ve also read that there is not a ton of queer representation in the MCU. But Agatha herself seems to have something going on with [Rio Vidal], Aubrey Plaza’s character.
SER: When I was younger, queerness was often a code for a character who’s already “naughty.” That’s not the case here. [Billy Maximoff] is just a guy with a boyfriend and it’s normal. [Agatha and Rio] have a history but it’s played like old film noir or old detective shows.
So the idea that within a generation, queerness is normalized in media is probably why you get a lot of angry white people voting for Trump. Because the world has really changed for the better for a lot of minorities.
LARAMIE: And quickly.
SER: I think it’s great that it’s twofold. Young queer kids can identify with Billy specifically, but young straight kids can also connect with what he’s going through and his interests. It’s not presented as wholly different. It’s wonderful to see that relationship between Billy and his boyfriend. It’s a healthy relationship, a good friendship. It’s great to see two young men who are really close and supportive of each other.
The young you out there can identify with Wiccan and Billy and who he is and what he’s going through. He’s universal but also unique.
Halloween Special: Celebrating Wicked Witches With Horror Author Laramie Dean