Thank you for this. I have no direct exposure to any of the stories you referenced but hearing your descriptions I now appreciate the medium for its relevance
Loved that page of the Red Skull from 2016. Makes me wish I hadn’t stopped reading Marvel. Someone worked their ass off on the art, too. How the hell did he come back from the grave?
Fantastic connections, but I am prejudiced in favor of superheroes. G. Gordon Godfrey looks more Glenn Beck to me here, but older incarnations used every trick of the demagogue, and a bit of the evangelist (he is a servant of a god, after all!).
It's really interesting to me how Marvel sanitized Red Skull as you've pointed out, Stephen, when one of the tools used and accepted in the 1940's against the Nazis was cartoons. The main ones I've seen were from Disney or were government-created, but they didn't shy away from showing Nazi paraphernalia or Hitler. I'm not going to go on a whole tangent but it does seem like our culture's attitudes about what children could understand and recognize as bad ideas really became strict and unthinking in the 80's.
As for Vance, he continues to be a vainglorious petty sociopath.
(... this bit brought to you by my stay in grade school.)
... a little more seriously it seems to me a method or device that could induce any self awareness in these assholes whatsoever would probably kill them instantly.
When you need to make up stories that promote violence against an innocent community to make it fit your narrative perhaps you may want to consider that your campaign doesn’t have much going for it. Perhaps Dana should have pointed that out.
I gleefully participate in name-calling about those white boys who are running to turn this country into a "Christian" plantation. (mmm do they use the name the Lord's name in vain?)
However much fun it is to come up with vile epithets, I wonder if it lowers our intelligence and brings us bad Karma.
I think if there were a media and political environment that rewarded that (cf. how people like to derisively refer to Michelle Obama's exhortation of "when they go low, we go high,") I believe more of us would probably think "oh it makes us look unintelligent."
However, we live in a media and political environment governed by Murc's Law. Only Democrats have political agency. Republicans and their supporters are absolutely free to wild out and there's no price they pay for that in coverage or rhetoric. Republican attendees at conventions get to wear shirts advocating the lynching of journalists. A truck tailgate featuring a hogtied Joe Biden is 'haha funny,' remembering what happened to Kathy Griffin by comparison.
Being nice and respectful to Republicans really imparts no advantage. We're nice to them, we bend over backwards to "reach out," and we get shit on. Our cities and states, if they have Democratic government, get shit on.
Can you imagine the hew and cry if Democratic politicians spent all their time making fun of, say, Tennessee? West Virginia? Missouri? The same way that these people use California as an epithet?
So I can kinda understand why people kinda hit their limit. I know I hit my limit with the outright ethnic cleansing. My gloves just really fell off.
And even THEN we don't go nearly as far as they do. They outright strip the bark off our people with the help of their rightwing media human centipede. Heck they have more or less glorified 4chan trolls as part of their congressional and senate delegation. They have outright eliminationist rhetoric. We just make fun of what weirdass creeps they are. Especially after Shady Vance (there I go again) Streisand-Effected the couch humping joke into a meme.
Though I will say, the snark and humor we have is WAY more intelligent. Everything on the rightwing side is The One Joke, basically, that "There are people different from me and hahha isn't that funny?"
I think the MCU separated Hydra's origin from the Nazis simply so that Cap could defeat the Nazis, but Hydra could still be a factor in the ensuing movies. Other than that one line of exposition about Hydra infiltrating the Nazis, they're treated as one unit throughout.
I can understand why there would be reasons to separate HYDRA and Nazis. But it is weird in the contemporary movies when you find out a bunch of nicely-dressed generic dudes are HYDRA. Like, hey, guys, you know those dudes were Nazis, right?
Comic books, all this time... just too subtle in their depictions of supervillainy. Even they had Dr. Doom (randomly, I might add) shedding a tear on 9/11, whereas the current GOP nominee crowed about having New York's biggest building. We as a society have not properly processed the moral vacuum this guy and his associates inhabit.
There was a real life consideration. Germany made the swastika illegal. You couldn't sell comic books there with that symbol in it. Hydra is the same thing, but not illegal, also more controllable than the real world villains.
Another case of switching from real world to fictional, the Soviet Union was one of American's favorite villains. When it ceased to be, Marvel created a Russian secret organization, Leviathan, that would retroactively be the true enemy controlling the Soviets. This maintained the Soviet/Russian villain, but avoided the problem of insulting normal Russians.
I can appreciate all this, but it does seem that Hydra reads like Cobra. So you lose the overtly vicious white supremacy behind the Skull, a true Nazi villain.
Stories like this one, are entering the disinformation space and being amplified for the purpose of getting people to be suspicious of non whites and immigrants.
Trump's racism in his blathering lies about immigration is so blatant. The racism of that man has no boundaries. Deranged and dangerous.
"Haitians eating pets" is Trump's new caravan BS story. His supporters are not only morons they are dangerous morons. The crazier Trump gets the more unstable they become!
That's why I love wearing this "Keep the immigrants, deport the racists" shirt 👇
They don’t even have the self-awareness to ask “Are we the baddies?”. I am hoping that this is the lie that ends them. Republican city officials are angrily pushing back instead of falling into place. On top of that, 45 caps-locked “I hate Taylor Swift” the other day so I expect the Swifties to FINISH HIM.
I'm continually impressed by your knowledge of comics, movies, and novels, and your ability to tie them into what's happening today.
I'm not overly familiar with the comics: I read some when I was 14 or so but they belonged to my younger brother so I had didn't want to look like I was TOO into what little bro was doing. Anyway, my take on the Red Skull in the MCU was that he was a Nazi straight up, but I admit, I wasn't looking too closely. Was it Chris Evans as Steve Rogers that distracted me? Perhaps.
Anyway on the topic of Vance, I heard about this story when my son walked into the room yesterday and said "Dana Bash called out Vance on his dies about Haitians". I'm glad she did. It's about time. Vance is actually WORSE than Trump. Trump's a narcissist and and opportunist. Vance REALLY should know better than the demented Batman to his Robin. The Springfield situation requires nuance and understanding. He just threw a fire bomb into the middle.
OFF TOPIC Completely, the concept of an assassination against former President Trump made me go "hmmm"....interesting that he's immediately fund raising off it. I guess that the first one didn't provide an epiphany for him.
Of the two, Vance is most definitely the one who will come out and say "Hail Hydra" at some point. Trump is running to make himself rich and to stay out of prison. JD is running to take over the country.
There was a sort of Republican who, while opposing illegal immigration, still extolled the virtues of hard working immigrant communities, especially when those immigrants filled needed jobs that earned praise from their employers.
That sort of Republican is no longer welcome in their party. It's now a blood and soil operation only.
Fantastic.
Thank you for this. I have no direct exposure to any of the stories you referenced but hearing your descriptions I now appreciate the medium for its relevance
Loved that page of the Red Skull from 2016. Makes me wish I hadn’t stopped reading Marvel. Someone worked their ass off on the art, too. How the hell did he come back from the grave?
Fantastic connections, but I am prejudiced in favor of superheroes. G. Gordon Godfrey looks more Glenn Beck to me here, but older incarnations used every trick of the demagogue, and a bit of the evangelist (he is a servant of a god, after all!).
Yes, I love how Godfrey has been adapted to the times. Pre-Fox News/right-wing radio, he would've been more of the televangelist.
It's really interesting to me how Marvel sanitized Red Skull as you've pointed out, Stephen, when one of the tools used and accepted in the 1940's against the Nazis was cartoons. The main ones I've seen were from Disney or were government-created, but they didn't shy away from showing Nazi paraphernalia or Hitler. I'm not going to go on a whole tangent but it does seem like our culture's attitudes about what children could understand and recognize as bad ideas really became strict and unthinking in the 80's.
As for Vance, he continues to be a vainglorious petty sociopath.
Wait... That’s not a mask?
Maybe he SHOULD wear one.
(... this bit brought to you by my stay in grade school.)
... a little more seriously it seems to me a method or device that could induce any self awareness in these assholes whatsoever would probably kill them instantly.
I have but one response to poor Jordan Peterson being upset that "his" ideas are coming out of Red Skull's mouth
https://tenor.com/view/zoidberg-you-should-feel-bad-gif-24409936
When you need to make up stories that promote violence against an innocent community to make it fit your narrative perhaps you may want to consider that your campaign doesn’t have much going for it. Perhaps Dana should have pointed that out.
I fear that the latest unhinged man with a gun will wash away the violence against the Haitian community in the media.
Trump, of course has 24/7 protection. The Haitains do not.
Tulsa is a hundred years ago and yet it feels so close.
Why did comics have to come true?
And it's never the happy plotlines either.
Demagogues that don't care about the impact of their words are the worst thing. That's how you start to have genocide.
OT:
I gleefully participate in name-calling about those white boys who are running to turn this country into a "Christian" plantation. (mmm do they use the name the Lord's name in vain?)
However much fun it is to come up with vile epithets, I wonder if it lowers our intelligence and brings us bad Karma.
I understand totally that sort of concern.
I think if there were a media and political environment that rewarded that (cf. how people like to derisively refer to Michelle Obama's exhortation of "when they go low, we go high,") I believe more of us would probably think "oh it makes us look unintelligent."
However, we live in a media and political environment governed by Murc's Law. Only Democrats have political agency. Republicans and their supporters are absolutely free to wild out and there's no price they pay for that in coverage or rhetoric. Republican attendees at conventions get to wear shirts advocating the lynching of journalists. A truck tailgate featuring a hogtied Joe Biden is 'haha funny,' remembering what happened to Kathy Griffin by comparison.
Being nice and respectful to Republicans really imparts no advantage. We're nice to them, we bend over backwards to "reach out," and we get shit on. Our cities and states, if they have Democratic government, get shit on.
Can you imagine the hew and cry if Democratic politicians spent all their time making fun of, say, Tennessee? West Virginia? Missouri? The same way that these people use California as an epithet?
So I can kinda understand why people kinda hit their limit. I know I hit my limit with the outright ethnic cleansing. My gloves just really fell off.
And even THEN we don't go nearly as far as they do. They outright strip the bark off our people with the help of their rightwing media human centipede. Heck they have more or less glorified 4chan trolls as part of their congressional and senate delegation. They have outright eliminationist rhetoric. We just make fun of what weirdass creeps they are. Especially after Shady Vance (there I go again) Streisand-Effected the couch humping joke into a meme.
Though I will say, the snark and humor we have is WAY more intelligent. Everything on the rightwing side is The One Joke, basically, that "There are people different from me and hahha isn't that funny?"
Also, it does feel good to laugh together at them, finally.
No. Ridicule is the kryptonite of authoritarians.
Othering the sources of Labor is how you keep your Capital intact
I think the MCU separated Hydra's origin from the Nazis simply so that Cap could defeat the Nazis, but Hydra could still be a factor in the ensuing movies. Other than that one line of exposition about Hydra infiltrating the Nazis, they're treated as one unit throughout.
I can understand why there would be reasons to separate HYDRA and Nazis. But it is weird in the contemporary movies when you find out a bunch of nicely-dressed generic dudes are HYDRA. Like, hey, guys, you know those dudes were Nazis, right?
Comic books, all this time... just too subtle in their depictions of supervillainy. Even they had Dr. Doom (randomly, I might add) shedding a tear on 9/11, whereas the current GOP nominee crowed about having New York's biggest building. We as a society have not properly processed the moral vacuum this guy and his associates inhabit.
Fromtheyardtothearthouse.substack.com
Doom weeping over 9/11 struck me as odd considering he actually implemented a version of 9/11 when he blew up the Baxter Building.
There was a real life consideration. Germany made the swastika illegal. You couldn't sell comic books there with that symbol in it. Hydra is the same thing, but not illegal, also more controllable than the real world villains.
Another case of switching from real world to fictional, the Soviet Union was one of American's favorite villains. When it ceased to be, Marvel created a Russian secret organization, Leviathan, that would retroactively be the true enemy controlling the Soviets. This maintained the Soviet/Russian villain, but avoided the problem of insulting normal Russians.
I can appreciate all this, but it does seem that Hydra reads like Cobra. So you lose the overtly vicious white supremacy behind the Skull, a true Nazi villain.
Stories like this one, are entering the disinformation space and being amplified for the purpose of getting people to be suspicious of non whites and immigrants.
Trump's racism in his blathering lies about immigration is so blatant. The racism of that man has no boundaries. Deranged and dangerous.
"Haitians eating pets" is Trump's new caravan BS story. His supporters are not only morons they are dangerous morons. The crazier Trump gets the more unstable they become!
That's why I love wearing this "Keep the immigrants, deport the racists" shirt 👇
https://libtees-2.creator-spring.com/listing/keeplb
They don’t even have the self-awareness to ask “Are we the baddies?”. I am hoping that this is the lie that ends them. Republican city officials are angrily pushing back instead of falling into place. On top of that, 45 caps-locked “I hate Taylor Swift” the other day so I expect the Swifties to FINISH HIM.
I'm continually impressed by your knowledge of comics, movies, and novels, and your ability to tie them into what's happening today.
I'm not overly familiar with the comics: I read some when I was 14 or so but they belonged to my younger brother so I had didn't want to look like I was TOO into what little bro was doing. Anyway, my take on the Red Skull in the MCU was that he was a Nazi straight up, but I admit, I wasn't looking too closely. Was it Chris Evans as Steve Rogers that distracted me? Perhaps.
Anyway on the topic of Vance, I heard about this story when my son walked into the room yesterday and said "Dana Bash called out Vance on his dies about Haitians". I'm glad she did. It's about time. Vance is actually WORSE than Trump. Trump's a narcissist and and opportunist. Vance REALLY should know better than the demented Batman to his Robin. The Springfield situation requires nuance and understanding. He just threw a fire bomb into the middle.
OFF TOPIC Completely, the concept of an assassination against former President Trump made me go "hmmm"....interesting that he's immediately fund raising off it. I guess that the first one didn't provide an epiphany for him.
Thanks!
Yes, Vance makes deliberate choices and is calculated in his hatred, while Trump is a deranged pathological liar.
Of the two, Vance is most definitely the one who will come out and say "Hail Hydra" at some point. Trump is running to make himself rich and to stay out of prison. JD is running to take over the country.
There was a sort of Republican who, while opposing illegal immigration, still extolled the virtues of hard working immigrant communities, especially when those immigrants filled needed jobs that earned praise from their employers.
That sort of Republican is no longer welcome in their party. It's now a blood and soil operation only.