Thank you Stephen—hard agree, 100% and this is one of the more toxic things I’ve seen from supposed liberals. The whole point of liberalism from my day (I’m only 50) is that we don’t treat people like crap just because they are within a demographic that they didn’t choose (like race). And the sneering “not all men” or “not all whites”—are you seriously kidding me here? I’d like to respond to such people with “you know you’re insufferable when swing voters found you so annoying that they chose fascism over the side you’re on” (yes I know the election was more complicated but sheesh, these people are driving potential allies away at exactly the time we don’t need that—it’s also bigotry and no we don’t get a pass on bigotry just because it’s directed at those we decided are too privileged to be victims).
As for right wingers who lump us all in with such close-minded types, dare I say…”not all liberals”?
Yeah, it astounded me when people would actually get annoyed that someone would "NotAllMen" or "NotAllWhiteWomen" their gross generalization of an entire group. In what reality are you expected to just remain quiet as people smear you. "If you *know* you're not a rapist, then you shouldn't feel it necessary to complain when I say 'all men in the workplace are potential rapists'" It's not just gross. It's counter-intuitive, playing right into the right-wing's hands that eagerly seize on the inevitable backlash to such extremist thinking.
Exactly. They don’t want discussion, hate nuance, and really just want to see self-flagellation from members of “privileged” groups (which as you note, some are happy to provide, as though points are to be won for confessing your sins). I don’t think it’s the primary reason young men drift to MAGA world but the MAGAs do get a lot of mileage telling potential recruits that liberals hate them just for being men or white. Hard to counteract that when some liberals happily play the part.
And when conservatives make sweeping bigoted generalizations they’re at least more subtle about it! These liberal “allies” of ours come right out and say “white gay men are the problem.”
I just don’t understand why demographics we keep demeaning as a group and publicly mocking if even one of them meekly suggests not being lumped in as a group are all going over to the other side.
As always a great perspective SER. Pete B could teach a master class in how to reach out beyond the divide. Frankly it seems that the younger politicians are overall better at this. Us older folks can learn a lot by following his, Crockett, AOC’a, Warren, Bernie’s et al.lead. And if someone has finally see the light it’s time to embrace them rather than reject them as a way to “serve them right”. Never underestimate anyone. Converts can oftentimes be the best way to help get more.
Resistance isn't just accomplished with protests or violence. Resistance begins with ideas. You need firebrands who can rally the faithful, but you also need people who can present your ideas and options simply and calmly to the skeptical or uncertain.
Every single word of this, and THANK YOU STEPHEN for once again bringing in a truckload of common sense and saying what needs to be said, and HEARD. It’s beyond frustrating at certain sites to make such observations as you have here, only to be piled on immediately and receive a condescending lecture that your non-identification, or perceived lack of sympathy, with this group or that group makes you a genocidal white supremacist homophobic anti-trans Nazi misandrist and/or misogynist or what have you (and at one site in particular, I was called all of those things at one point or another).
This only widens the gulfs between us otherwise like-minded folks, at a crucial time when we all need to search for our vital similarities and (at least temporarily) kick to the curb our personal pet peeves. None of it will matter if American democracy doesn’t survive American fascism. Once again, thank you Stephen.
<If one person discounts your stereotypes about their specific group identity, then you should stop making sweeping statements about that group. Fascism prevails when people are defined solely by their identity. True liberalism doesn’t enable this.>
I find this to be true when I see people engage in what I call “state hate”. States like Texas, Florida, and South Carolina, even though Trump won them all, his ratio is 6-4, generally. So I draw a distinction between being a “Texan” and what the government they live under is. I have gotten very irritated in the past when my state is painted as being full of MAGAts and Nazis, despite having all Democrats in Congress and having voted for a GOP President once since 1992 (2000, thanks Nader voters!) I had to remind someone I’m fond of that his very blue state has plenty of white supremacy groups in it (with citations). I almost wrote to him “Am I one of ‘the good ones’?”
Anyway, I like how Pete frames things to his audiences. He has a conversational rather than professorial style that I think connects with everyone.
Exactly. A decent liberal, I’d think, would want to stick up for those liberals who are living in places where they’re a distinct minority, not sneer at them as though they voted for Greg Abbott.
"He has a conversational rather than professorial style that I think connects with everyone."
And he's getting better at it...Early on when he first came onto the scene he was a bit more polished and 'decorumy'...He's taken on a kind of casual edgyness that's frankly kinda hot...I'm liking him more and more
As a Tennessean, I feel your pain w/r/t regional bigotry. To me, my state is like my brother: Yes he’s an asshole, but he’s family, so I can call him an asshole, but you can’t.
I'm in NH and I see things like "Please, Canada annex New England except for NH". I mean, one should be proud of where they are from or where they live if they so choose.
I've been a small town, rural type my whole life. One look at me and you would think I'm a typical MAGAt. Talk to me and you will find the assumption is quite false. I often post this quote from Medgar Evers. I had someone respond with "and look what happened to him." I didn't engage further, since that would have been a fool's errand.
“Why do I live in Mississippi? The state is beautiful, it is home, I love it here. A man’s state is like his house. If it has defects, he tries to remedy them. That’s what my job is here. Why do I live in Mississippi? I live here to better it for my wife and kids, and for all the wives and all the kids who expect and deserve something better than what they are getting from life,”
Professional loser class is a great way to describe people who see only differences, not the commonalities, and seek to divide us for whatever reason. I am mature enough to know that I won't agree with ANYONE 100%, but it's helpful to find common ground. I'm willing to do that with trump voters who regret their vote. As much as I'd love to scold them first, and they deserve it, that wouldn't help to defeat this maladministration. Such people are reachable. I've never heard of Andrew Schulz, so have no idea what his political views are, but I like the idea of going where the people are, and Mayor Pete is doing just that. Sometimes I wonder if VP Harris had gone on what's his name's podcast (he used to have the #1 podcast, but now it's Medias), and he's right wing, but not so bad as Bed Shapiro and others, if she would have won. She seemed open to it, but didn't go on it, and I still blame the paid political consultants for reigning her and Governor Waltz in. Yeah, they did it, because the "experts" said to, but they are part of the professional lost class too, and the sooner that Dems realize that, the better.
I stayed with a friend, a hippie vet tech mom whose ine lovely mother was a practicing witch during her lifetime just this weekend. I was there to visit my incarcerated relative. My friend knew this and was incredibly thoughtful and generous and kind about my relative. Staying with my friend meant I didn't have to make the 6 hr round trip in a day.
I found myself having to explain to them why All Lives Matter is offensive when used alongside or as a response to Black Lives Matter. We talked long into the night.
We are SOOO behind in messaging it can appear insurmountable. Going to talk to a horse of a different feather? Well, you'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you may as well go if you want to make a change in our world (some exceptions do apply, use your brain and do your due dilligence) .
But. Mostly! We have to stand together right now. With our bodies. Hot takes wil not save us. We will save us, together.
I at least trust Pete Buttigieg on these programs rather than Gavin Newsom, who throws vulnerable minorities under the bus. That said there is (under Murc's Law) only accountability for Democrats, so it is always fraught going on such programs. But as Brian Tyler Cohen says, there aren't enough of us so we need to expand the reach.
Demonizing people as a group is not the best path to a winning coalition. However, the technique doesn't seem to have hurt Republicans, who practice identity politics as an art form.
Starting with Nixon and the "Silent Majority", Republicans have claimed ownership of patriotism and God and all forms of legitimacy for themselves, while denigrating all minorities as anti-american for years.
They have attacked college students, gay and trans people, intellectuals and the highly educated, scientists, unionists, judges, and all foreigners. They've even blamed poor people for their own poverty. They've attacked the right to abortion, which a majority of voters actually support. All of that doesn't seem to have hurt them. They've managed to advocate for policies which help the tiny minority of mega-rich at the expense of everyone else. Their policy, or rather lack of policy, on health care hasn't seemed to have hurt them, while the Democrats who managed to help millions of people get access to health care haven't managed to accrue much long term benefit from getting it done.
It seems to me that Mayor Pete is doing exactly the right thing by using the forums of the right to inject his consistent, concise, and calm message where it rarely gets heard. The only way to break the bubble of misinformation is to puncture it at its core. I don't see a better spokesperson for Democrats on the national stage.
I totally agree. I tried to encourage the Individible group I was with to call republican offices and voice our opposition about one of the bills. I was shut down and told it wouldn’t be useful. Why call democrats who already agree with us. We need to inform those who don’t get what Trump is doing. I know many just are going to believe anything he says but we need to try.
Project 2025 is at the root of everything going on with Trump.
If we’re ever going to have a bipartisan govt again (President Biden was known and lauded for “working across the aisle”) we’re never going to get there again if we alienate ourselves.
That comment from LeslieMac is SO OFFENSIVE. Generalizing about groups of people based on their demographics is one of the worst things about the left. Calling people “problematic” as a group alienates the whole group and those who know anyone in that group. Criticism like this is driving people away from the Democratic Party. This must stop if democracy in America is going to survive at all.
It’s definitely politically stupid, but it’s also, to me as a liberal, antithetical to everything else we stand for. Calling all men or whites problematic sounds to me like not that great a leap to “Asians are problematic because they voted Republican.”
It is a problem with that kind of extreme criticism. Yet it is also bad tactically because that is where the power is...it is attacking those with the most political efficacy. Conversely, it is fine for...for example...blood libel to be spread about Haitian-Americans as well as trans people...because they are tiny minorities.
Repubs have done that for decades, and it seems to work for them.
ETA: you are right -we shouldn't generalize groups of people, nor should we demonize them, unless they are doing harm to others, especially the vulnerable. We should never demonize innocent people for gain, or for any reason for that matter. It's disappointing that so many so-called liberals are like LeslieMac.
Thank you. As usual, this post expanded my perspective and really made me think. I'm still thinking about it days later.
What I love about Pete is his focus on the policies that MAKE LIVES BETTER. He doesn't belittle, shame, or accuse. So refreshing.
Thank you Stephen—hard agree, 100% and this is one of the more toxic things I’ve seen from supposed liberals. The whole point of liberalism from my day (I’m only 50) is that we don’t treat people like crap just because they are within a demographic that they didn’t choose (like race). And the sneering “not all men” or “not all whites”—are you seriously kidding me here? I’d like to respond to such people with “you know you’re insufferable when swing voters found you so annoying that they chose fascism over the side you’re on” (yes I know the election was more complicated but sheesh, these people are driving potential allies away at exactly the time we don’t need that—it’s also bigotry and no we don’t get a pass on bigotry just because it’s directed at those we decided are too privileged to be victims).
As for right wingers who lump us all in with such close-minded types, dare I say…”not all liberals”?
Yeah, it astounded me when people would actually get annoyed that someone would "NotAllMen" or "NotAllWhiteWomen" their gross generalization of an entire group. In what reality are you expected to just remain quiet as people smear you. "If you *know* you're not a rapist, then you shouldn't feel it necessary to complain when I say 'all men in the workplace are potential rapists'" It's not just gross. It's counter-intuitive, playing right into the right-wing's hands that eagerly seize on the inevitable backlash to such extremist thinking.
Exactly. They don’t want discussion, hate nuance, and really just want to see self-flagellation from members of “privileged” groups (which as you note, some are happy to provide, as though points are to be won for confessing your sins). I don’t think it’s the primary reason young men drift to MAGA world but the MAGAs do get a lot of mileage telling potential recruits that liberals hate them just for being men or white. Hard to counteract that when some liberals happily play the part.
And when conservatives make sweeping bigoted generalizations they’re at least more subtle about it! These liberal “allies” of ours come right out and say “white gay men are the problem.”
I just don’t understand why demographics we keep demeaning as a group and publicly mocking if even one of them meekly suggests not being lumped in as a group are all going over to the other side.
Such a mystery!
Riddle wrapped in an enigma!
Clearly the world is just too white supremacist for us, especially all those nonwhite white supremacists who must be getting tricked.
Whatever we do, we shouldn’t change a thing. Couldn’t be that we are so annoying we are actually driving swing voters to fascism.
As always a great perspective SER. Pete B could teach a master class in how to reach out beyond the divide. Frankly it seems that the younger politicians are overall better at this. Us older folks can learn a lot by following his, Crockett, AOC’a, Warren, Bernie’s et al.lead. And if someone has finally see the light it’s time to embrace them rather than reject them as a way to “serve them right”. Never underestimate anyone. Converts can oftentimes be the best way to help get more.
Resistance isn't just accomplished with protests or violence. Resistance begins with ideas. You need firebrands who can rally the faithful, but you also need people who can present your ideas and options simply and calmly to the skeptical or uncertain.
You need Patrick Henry and James Madison types.
Every single word of this, and THANK YOU STEPHEN for once again bringing in a truckload of common sense and saying what needs to be said, and HEARD. It’s beyond frustrating at certain sites to make such observations as you have here, only to be piled on immediately and receive a condescending lecture that your non-identification, or perceived lack of sympathy, with this group or that group makes you a genocidal white supremacist homophobic anti-trans Nazi misandrist and/or misogynist or what have you (and at one site in particular, I was called all of those things at one point or another).
This only widens the gulfs between us otherwise like-minded folks, at a crucial time when we all need to search for our vital similarities and (at least temporarily) kick to the curb our personal pet peeves. None of it will matter if American democracy doesn’t survive American fascism. Once again, thank you Stephen.
HARD AGREE!
Thank you for the kind words.
Really enjoyed your piece, Stephen.
<If one person discounts your stereotypes about their specific group identity, then you should stop making sweeping statements about that group. Fascism prevails when people are defined solely by their identity. True liberalism doesn’t enable this.>
I find this to be true when I see people engage in what I call “state hate”. States like Texas, Florida, and South Carolina, even though Trump won them all, his ratio is 6-4, generally. So I draw a distinction between being a “Texan” and what the government they live under is. I have gotten very irritated in the past when my state is painted as being full of MAGAts and Nazis, despite having all Democrats in Congress and having voted for a GOP President once since 1992 (2000, thanks Nader voters!) I had to remind someone I’m fond of that his very blue state has plenty of white supremacy groups in it (with citations). I almost wrote to him “Am I one of ‘the good ones’?”
Anyway, I like how Pete frames things to his audiences. He has a conversational rather than professorial style that I think connects with everyone.
Exactly. A decent liberal, I’d think, would want to stick up for those liberals who are living in places where they’re a distinct minority, not sneer at them as though they voted for Greg Abbott.
"He has a conversational rather than professorial style that I think connects with everyone."
And he's getting better at it...Early on when he first came onto the scene he was a bit more polished and 'decorumy'...He's taken on a kind of casual edgyness that's frankly kinda hot...I'm liking him more and more
And I like when he drops in a curse word occasionally, it’s kind of shocking yet humanizes him I think.
As a Tennessean, I feel your pain w/r/t regional bigotry. To me, my state is like my brother: Yes he’s an asshole, but he’s family, so I can call him an asshole, but you can’t.
I'm in NH and I see things like "Please, Canada annex New England except for NH". I mean, one should be proud of where they are from or where they live if they so choose.
I've been a small town, rural type my whole life. One look at me and you would think I'm a typical MAGAt. Talk to me and you will find the assumption is quite false. I often post this quote from Medgar Evers. I had someone respond with "and look what happened to him." I didn't engage further, since that would have been a fool's errand.
“Why do I live in Mississippi? The state is beautiful, it is home, I love it here. A man’s state is like his house. If it has defects, he tries to remedy them. That’s what my job is here. Why do I live in Mississippi? I live here to better it for my wife and kids, and for all the wives and all the kids who expect and deserve something better than what they are getting from life,”
Professional loser class is a great way to describe people who see only differences, not the commonalities, and seek to divide us for whatever reason. I am mature enough to know that I won't agree with ANYONE 100%, but it's helpful to find common ground. I'm willing to do that with trump voters who regret their vote. As much as I'd love to scold them first, and they deserve it, that wouldn't help to defeat this maladministration. Such people are reachable. I've never heard of Andrew Schulz, so have no idea what his political views are, but I like the idea of going where the people are, and Mayor Pete is doing just that. Sometimes I wonder if VP Harris had gone on what's his name's podcast (he used to have the #1 podcast, but now it's Medias), and he's right wing, but not so bad as Bed Shapiro and others, if she would have won. She seemed open to it, but didn't go on it, and I still blame the paid political consultants for reigning her and Governor Waltz in. Yeah, they did it, because the "experts" said to, but they are part of the professional lost class too, and the sooner that Dems realize that, the better.
I stayed with a friend, a hippie vet tech mom whose ine lovely mother was a practicing witch during her lifetime just this weekend. I was there to visit my incarcerated relative. My friend knew this and was incredibly thoughtful and generous and kind about my relative. Staying with my friend meant I didn't have to make the 6 hr round trip in a day.
I found myself having to explain to them why All Lives Matter is offensive when used alongside or as a response to Black Lives Matter. We talked long into the night.
We are SOOO behind in messaging it can appear insurmountable. Going to talk to a horse of a different feather? Well, you'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you may as well go if you want to make a change in our world (some exceptions do apply, use your brain and do your due dilligence) .
But. Mostly! We have to stand together right now. With our bodies. Hot takes wil not save us. We will save us, together.
I at least trust Pete Buttigieg on these programs rather than Gavin Newsom, who throws vulnerable minorities under the bus. That said there is (under Murc's Law) only accountability for Democrats, so it is always fraught going on such programs. But as Brian Tyler Cohen says, there aren't enough of us so we need to expand the reach.
Better them than I, because I am tired.
Remember constructive criticism? Maybe more of that and less attacking people for who they are and to some extent what they believe.
Demonizing people as a group is not the best path to a winning coalition. However, the technique doesn't seem to have hurt Republicans, who practice identity politics as an art form.
Starting with Nixon and the "Silent Majority", Republicans have claimed ownership of patriotism and God and all forms of legitimacy for themselves, while denigrating all minorities as anti-american for years.
They have attacked college students, gay and trans people, intellectuals and the highly educated, scientists, unionists, judges, and all foreigners. They've even blamed poor people for their own poverty. They've attacked the right to abortion, which a majority of voters actually support. All of that doesn't seem to have hurt them. They've managed to advocate for policies which help the tiny minority of mega-rich at the expense of everyone else. Their policy, or rather lack of policy, on health care hasn't seemed to have hurt them, while the Democrats who managed to help millions of people get access to health care haven't managed to accrue much long term benefit from getting it done.
It seems to me that Mayor Pete is doing exactly the right thing by using the forums of the right to inject his consistent, concise, and calm message where it rarely gets heard. The only way to break the bubble of misinformation is to puncture it at its core. I don't see a better spokesperson for Democrats on the national stage.
I totally agree. I tried to encourage the Individible group I was with to call republican offices and voice our opposition about one of the bills. I was shut down and told it wouldn’t be useful. Why call democrats who already agree with us. We need to inform those who don’t get what Trump is doing. I know many just are going to believe anything he says but we need to try.
Project 2025 is at the root of everything going on with Trump.
If we’re ever going to have a bipartisan govt again (President Biden was known and lauded for “working across the aisle”) we’re never going to get there again if we alienate ourselves.
That comment from LeslieMac is SO OFFENSIVE. Generalizing about groups of people based on their demographics is one of the worst things about the left. Calling people “problematic” as a group alienates the whole group and those who know anyone in that group. Criticism like this is driving people away from the Democratic Party. This must stop if democracy in America is going to survive at all.
It’s definitely politically stupid, but it’s also, to me as a liberal, antithetical to everything else we stand for. Calling all men or whites problematic sounds to me like not that great a leap to “Asians are problematic because they voted Republican.”
Thank you
It is a problem with that kind of extreme criticism. Yet it is also bad tactically because that is where the power is...it is attacking those with the most political efficacy. Conversely, it is fine for...for example...blood libel to be spread about Haitian-Americans as well as trans people...because they are tiny minorities.
Repubs have done that for decades, and it seems to work for them.
ETA: you are right -we shouldn't generalize groups of people, nor should we demonize them, unless they are doing harm to others, especially the vulnerable. We should never demonize innocent people for gain, or for any reason for that matter. It's disappointing that so many so-called liberals are like LeslieMac.
That type of comment is why we lose elections. It actually turns on us.