Tell me, I would like to know….it’s baffling that this one statement that she stated, and learned from, she has now become a member that contributes to the Democratic Party and Detroit Voters, she turned it around and has become quite confident for her constituents and her party! Growth is strength!🇺🇸🌵💙👩🏻😎🕊️
Sorry, I don't know if I was clear enough in my initial comment. I'm staunchly against the war, Bibi, and the ultra-right. However, some of the language that I've heard from the most militant anti-Zionist voices that are nominally on the left definitely seem to be denying Israel's right to exist. I'm not just presuming that. I didn't know that Haaretz had narrowed the scope of their definiton. So thanks for informing me of that. I'm also glad to hear that it might not be as widespread as it seems, though I don't know if percentage is as small as you claim.
One of the two things that I think are absolutely essential for those of us on the left is making sure we're especially clear about the terms that we're using. So, while the definition of 'Zionist' might have shifted for a number of people, it's still largely understood by many to encompass the entirety of Jewish statehood, not just Bibi and his illegitimate government. I've also seen people get accused of being a Zionist just for supporting Israel's right to exist, or because they participated in their mandatory service with the IDF. I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, but I'm adamantly opposed to Bibi and his ultra right coalition. I like to think i would've been willing to go to jail for being a conscientious objector and not serving, but I can't say for sure that's what I would've done. I know there are plenty of people in the IDF who don't support Bibi and the right, though.
The other thing I think it's absolutely essential that those of us on the left accomplish is making sure that we categorically nip any actual antisemitism in the bud. Because as much as I'd like to think that it doesn't exist, people who are justifiably upset about the genocide being perpetrated by Bibi and his coalition are more easily susceptible to propaganda and other forms of manipulation from actual antisemites. While I suppose there's a chance that the people who defaced the Anne Frank statue with graffiti saying "free Gaza" were rightwingers trying to discredit the movement, I think it's just as likely that it was someone with a good heart who got talked into taking the absolutely dumbest form of direct action possible.
I didn't think from your initial comment you were pro Bibi. The problem is finding a word to adequately describe the far right in Israel. It isn't simply being reactionary--it is being reactionary in a particular way that LINKS to the original aim of Zionism. That aim was a homeland: after the Horrors of the Holocaust, the international community agreed the Jews deserved one. That necessarily displaced those already there because it was clear that the two religions were not going to just live side by side. OK, the world, except for the displaced, accepted that.
But there has always been an expansionist quality to some Israelis, particularly in government. It isn't just "my homeland now, my rules" but "my homeland should be bigger and I'm going to take more." I suspect that most Israelis are content now with what they have and just want to live in peace. Not, all too often, their leaders.
There are certainly parallels, in terms of control, with Christian Nationalists, which share that evangelical "everyone do it my way" nature. But I suspect simply saying "Jewish Nationalists" would bring down a heap of outrage. The outrage wouldn't be from the actual Israelis who themselves abhor Bibi. It would be from the diaspora Jews, particularly in the US. ANYTHING that criticizes anything Jewish is decried as antisemitic.
I myself in writing use "far right expansionists" or similar. I don't use Zionist except where the context makes it really clear what I am talking about. "Far Right Expansionists" doesn't really make it as a protest chant. "Imperialists" is a loaded word even though a lot of the far-right's actions are indeed imperialist. But it is a word too fraught with Cold War overtones, just as "Communist" is. All I am really saying is that you can't just ASSUME that Zionist, or Free Gaza, or similar chants are antisemitic. That assumption is what I absolutely deplore in the response to the student protests, particularly since it was behind actual arrests and expulsions. One of the frustrating aspects was the fact that the media almost never specified what was or who said it so that one could guess how a phrase might have been used. It was all generalities: "the students" were the ones being attributed en masse to things that might or might not have been antisemitic or pro Hamas: it was just assumed that whatever someone said was antisemitic. As I often point out, being anti-Putin anti Orban isn't ipso facto anti-Christian.
I completely agree that we have to nip actual antisemitism in the left if we encounter it. I'm not really sure how many ARE vulnerable to actually BEING antisemitic. It is far more an issue on the right, where it is bound up with White Nationalism in a big way.
And, of course, protests of any sort attract riff raff, simple troublemakers. We see that all the time, particularly during the BLM protests. A rash of cop cars set on fire in Seattle during those protests turned out to be all set by one disturbed woman from out of state, whose family had been searching for her BECAUSE she was so disturbed.
So as far as the actual antisemitic actions like defacing Anne Frank's statute or the graffiti that showed up in the middle of the night at the University of Washington, one can't assume it was protestors who did them. If no one saw the acts it is at least open to the interpretation that it was simple trouble makers--not even right wingers trying to discredit, but simply people who take the opportunity to vandalize and choose the issue of the moment as to how to do that. And some of it MAY be manipulation by actual antisemites: I'm not going to deny that some on the left may be so. The Left is not immune from having idiots in its ranks.
And amongst those idiots are those who think Bibi is just doing the right thing. Thinking that what is going on in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is just peachy keen, where "the right to defend itself" isn't remotely applicable.
The state is made up of people and it is important to not conflate the two.
My government does tons of fucked up shit that I, a person, don't support, though.
As to lying about the words of a woman of color, well, it's another day ending in Y. Rep Tlaib's office won't protect her from that, racism and sexism in the United States is a far more powerful force than any respect of the office. If you can't call a woman of color a liar and anti-semite, how can you call a white dude like Biden the same thing?
These people don't see anyone other than white dudes as fully human.
WTAF is WRONG with Dana Bash? She freely tosses out "anti-Semitism" slurs to any and all who even question Israeli policy v the Palestinians, let alone condemn mass murder in Gaza...disgrace to journalism, and yet another Netanyahu stooge.
I don't like when people conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, but I also don't feel fully comfortable with people using "Zionist" as a slur. Like I believe the Jewish people should have a home state and the right to self determination. I don't support the Nakba or anything, by any means, but the history of empire in Palestine stretches back further than the state of Israel too. I think too many of my compatriots on the left, especially the younger ones, are so (rightly) upset about the unjust actions of the state apparatus of Israel that they're willing to disenfranchise or exile the Jewish people who live there who oppose those unjust actions. Of course the weaponization of antisemitism to silent dissent exacerbates this problem. I don't know. I don't have a solution or anything. I'm just scared that the continued atrocities of the state of Israel and weaponization of antisemitism by proponents of the state will end up leasing to actual antisemitism.
I think that some of the problem is that the meaning of Zionism has actually shifted for a lot of people, referring now to the ultra right, particularly those who preach a "manifest destiny" for Jews over any lands seen as Biblical. I know that some Jewish Organizations have tried to "define" the term as "supporting Israel's right to exist" but language doesn't work that way. Even Haaretz uses the term now in the more narrow sense.
To assume that anyone using it is denying Israel's right to exist is seeing antisemitism where it most probably doesn't exist. I doubt that 1 in a thousand, in tens of thousands, of people criticizing Zionism have any doubts about Israel's right to exist. They DO have serious questions about the right to exist of Netanyahu and his far right buddies.
The same goes for the phrase "Free Palestine." Anyone who has consulted even Wikipedia, much less deeper sources, is aware of how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades--most of my life, actually (and I'm 80). Calling "Free Palestine" means just that. It is anti Bibi, not antisemitic, and you don't get to play the antisemitism card, as Bibi did at the UN, to excuse anything the government does.
If you want to support Israel's war aims fine, that is your prerogative. But you cannot presume antisemitism and feel victimized about it just because someone opposes those war aims.
Tell me, I would like to know….it’s baffling that this one statement that she stated, and learned from, she has now become a member that contributes to the Democratic Party and Detroit Voters, she turned it around and has become quite confident for her constituents and her party! Growth is strength!🇺🇸🌵💙👩🏻😎🕊️
Sorry, I don't know if I was clear enough in my initial comment. I'm staunchly against the war, Bibi, and the ultra-right. However, some of the language that I've heard from the most militant anti-Zionist voices that are nominally on the left definitely seem to be denying Israel's right to exist. I'm not just presuming that. I didn't know that Haaretz had narrowed the scope of their definiton. So thanks for informing me of that. I'm also glad to hear that it might not be as widespread as it seems, though I don't know if percentage is as small as you claim.
One of the two things that I think are absolutely essential for those of us on the left is making sure we're especially clear about the terms that we're using. So, while the definition of 'Zionist' might have shifted for a number of people, it's still largely understood by many to encompass the entirety of Jewish statehood, not just Bibi and his illegitimate government. I've also seen people get accused of being a Zionist just for supporting Israel's right to exist, or because they participated in their mandatory service with the IDF. I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, but I'm adamantly opposed to Bibi and his ultra right coalition. I like to think i would've been willing to go to jail for being a conscientious objector and not serving, but I can't say for sure that's what I would've done. I know there are plenty of people in the IDF who don't support Bibi and the right, though.
The other thing I think it's absolutely essential that those of us on the left accomplish is making sure that we categorically nip any actual antisemitism in the bud. Because as much as I'd like to think that it doesn't exist, people who are justifiably upset about the genocide being perpetrated by Bibi and his coalition are more easily susceptible to propaganda and other forms of manipulation from actual antisemites. While I suppose there's a chance that the people who defaced the Anne Frank statue with graffiti saying "free Gaza" were rightwingers trying to discredit the movement, I think it's just as likely that it was someone with a good heart who got talked into taking the absolutely dumbest form of direct action possible.
I didn't think from your initial comment you were pro Bibi. The problem is finding a word to adequately describe the far right in Israel. It isn't simply being reactionary--it is being reactionary in a particular way that LINKS to the original aim of Zionism. That aim was a homeland: after the Horrors of the Holocaust, the international community agreed the Jews deserved one. That necessarily displaced those already there because it was clear that the two religions were not going to just live side by side. OK, the world, except for the displaced, accepted that.
But there has always been an expansionist quality to some Israelis, particularly in government. It isn't just "my homeland now, my rules" but "my homeland should be bigger and I'm going to take more." I suspect that most Israelis are content now with what they have and just want to live in peace. Not, all too often, their leaders.
There are certainly parallels, in terms of control, with Christian Nationalists, which share that evangelical "everyone do it my way" nature. But I suspect simply saying "Jewish Nationalists" would bring down a heap of outrage. The outrage wouldn't be from the actual Israelis who themselves abhor Bibi. It would be from the diaspora Jews, particularly in the US. ANYTHING that criticizes anything Jewish is decried as antisemitic.
I myself in writing use "far right expansionists" or similar. I don't use Zionist except where the context makes it really clear what I am talking about. "Far Right Expansionists" doesn't really make it as a protest chant. "Imperialists" is a loaded word even though a lot of the far-right's actions are indeed imperialist. But it is a word too fraught with Cold War overtones, just as "Communist" is. All I am really saying is that you can't just ASSUME that Zionist, or Free Gaza, or similar chants are antisemitic. That assumption is what I absolutely deplore in the response to the student protests, particularly since it was behind actual arrests and expulsions. One of the frustrating aspects was the fact that the media almost never specified what was or who said it so that one could guess how a phrase might have been used. It was all generalities: "the students" were the ones being attributed en masse to things that might or might not have been antisemitic or pro Hamas: it was just assumed that whatever someone said was antisemitic. As I often point out, being anti-Putin anti Orban isn't ipso facto anti-Christian.
I completely agree that we have to nip actual antisemitism in the left if we encounter it. I'm not really sure how many ARE vulnerable to actually BEING antisemitic. It is far more an issue on the right, where it is bound up with White Nationalism in a big way.
And, of course, protests of any sort attract riff raff, simple troublemakers. We see that all the time, particularly during the BLM protests. A rash of cop cars set on fire in Seattle during those protests turned out to be all set by one disturbed woman from out of state, whose family had been searching for her BECAUSE she was so disturbed.
So as far as the actual antisemitic actions like defacing Anne Frank's statute or the graffiti that showed up in the middle of the night at the University of Washington, one can't assume it was protestors who did them. If no one saw the acts it is at least open to the interpretation that it was simple trouble makers--not even right wingers trying to discredit, but simply people who take the opportunity to vandalize and choose the issue of the moment as to how to do that. And some of it MAY be manipulation by actual antisemites: I'm not going to deny that some on the left may be so. The Left is not immune from having idiots in its ranks.
And amongst those idiots are those who think Bibi is just doing the right thing. Thinking that what is going on in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is just peachy keen, where "the right to defend itself" isn't remotely applicable.
The state is made up of people and it is important to not conflate the two.
My government does tons of fucked up shit that I, a person, don't support, though.
As to lying about the words of a woman of color, well, it's another day ending in Y. Rep Tlaib's office won't protect her from that, racism and sexism in the United States is a far more powerful force than any respect of the office. If you can't call a woman of color a liar and anti-semite, how can you call a white dude like Biden the same thing?
These people don't see anyone other than white dudes as fully human.
WTAF is WRONG with Dana Bash? She freely tosses out "anti-Semitism" slurs to any and all who even question Israeli policy v the Palestinians, let alone condemn mass murder in Gaza...disgrace to journalism, and yet another Netanyahu stooge.
I don't like when people conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, but I also don't feel fully comfortable with people using "Zionist" as a slur. Like I believe the Jewish people should have a home state and the right to self determination. I don't support the Nakba or anything, by any means, but the history of empire in Palestine stretches back further than the state of Israel too. I think too many of my compatriots on the left, especially the younger ones, are so (rightly) upset about the unjust actions of the state apparatus of Israel that they're willing to disenfranchise or exile the Jewish people who live there who oppose those unjust actions. Of course the weaponization of antisemitism to silent dissent exacerbates this problem. I don't know. I don't have a solution or anything. I'm just scared that the continued atrocities of the state of Israel and weaponization of antisemitism by proponents of the state will end up leasing to actual antisemitism.
I think that some of the problem is that the meaning of Zionism has actually shifted for a lot of people, referring now to the ultra right, particularly those who preach a "manifest destiny" for Jews over any lands seen as Biblical. I know that some Jewish Organizations have tried to "define" the term as "supporting Israel's right to exist" but language doesn't work that way. Even Haaretz uses the term now in the more narrow sense.
To assume that anyone using it is denying Israel's right to exist is seeing antisemitism where it most probably doesn't exist. I doubt that 1 in a thousand, in tens of thousands, of people criticizing Zionism have any doubts about Israel's right to exist. They DO have serious questions about the right to exist of Netanyahu and his far right buddies.
The same goes for the phrase "Free Palestine." Anyone who has consulted even Wikipedia, much less deeper sources, is aware of how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades--most of my life, actually (and I'm 80). Calling "Free Palestine" means just that. It is anti Bibi, not antisemitic, and you don't get to play the antisemitism card, as Bibi did at the UN, to excuse anything the government does.
If you want to support Israel's war aims fine, that is your prerogative. But you cannot presume antisemitism and feel victimized about it just because someone opposes those war aims.
Sorry my comment below was supposed to be in response to this. I'll try to get on my laptop to see if I can copy and paste it here and delete that one
Don't worry. Found it and am responding.
Thanks! Yes, I don’t support using “Zionist” or any term as a slur.
Perhaps Zion-ish? There's a bit of a 'no true scotsman' problem here
"I'm an evangelical christian, but not one of THOSE evangelical Christians"
When you have to define your lowercase terms In contrast to the uppercase terms Perhaps it's best to get out from under the umbrella altogether?
IOW There is no way to have a meaningful conversation about this under the aegis of such an undefinable ethos.
A thing that can mean all things to all people means nothing to anyone