Ultimately, conservatism has become completely debased. A person who is truly a conservative, whose beliefs and practices are in line with the legitimate political philosophical tradition that traces to Burke and Mill, can have funny observations that reflect those beliefs. Harvey Kurtzman, Mort Sahl, Frank Zappa all identified to some extent as conservatives, to list the first names that come to mind. But, as Zappa said in the 80s, Republicans aren't conservatives, they are fascists.
Mike Judge has made me laugh satirizing aspects of liberal culture over the years, but he doesn't cross over into cheerleading for fascism. He never comes off as an advocate of repression. Carlin's occupation was Foole, but he worked for himself. Being the court jester for Trump is not the same thing.
One name that came quickly to mind, when you were talking about Bob Hope as an example, was Dennis Miller. I saw him a few times on The Tonight Show and similar, after he'd left SNL, and I thought he always killed it, just sitting in the chair.
Until, that is, around 9/11, when he stopped pretending he was a "libertarian" or a "conservative, but socially liberal," and went full metal W fanboi. Even trying to factor that out, I thought he stopped being funny right around then. He just always sounded mean.
Time and time again we see these conservative 'comics' just being mean and cruel in the standup. And I can see why that appeals to mean people who also happen to be bigots. So I could see why it's uproariously funny to them when they beat up on innocent trans people just for existing. If the position is that trans people are an affront to nature, and shouldn't exist at all, it's all part of the "People that are different from me are invalid or not even people" that animates a lot of these chuds.
Eddie Murphy actually showed me a lot, even as large swathes of his popular standup routines really aged poorly. I do actually remember the funny parts of the standup specials (for example the bit about Jesse Jackson running for President).
Interestingly, I also recall in Raw, Eddie Murphy even had I suppose what counts as an apology in the 1980s where he addressed how nasty he was in joking about gay people in Delirious. And even that sorta-apology was better than what Dave Chappelle did.
Chappelle strikes me as a petulant dickhead, though a very funny comic. He got mileage for years, praised by fans for making fun of white people, though once he was a rich guy making fun of poor white people (punching down?) and of course women, it hit different. Then he made a lot of trans jokes at a time when regrettably a lot of comics did that shit, so when attitudes changed he faced the question of whether his jokes aged poorly and decided “how very dare you quest me” and doubled down. And he won’t shut the fuck up about trans people because he has his stupid point to prove.
A shame because otherwise he is a very funny standup.
Yeah that was sad to see him lose the plot in that way. I'd enjoyed his comedy. But I guess people change. I've not had the interest or desire to click on any of his videos or the like.
Forever mourn the loss of Hicks, gone too soon. A man that came through his alcohol soaked days to set himself to the task of scathing observer who pulled no punches.
As to Carlin, well, he is less of a hero to me. He would tell his audiences "Don't vote, I never have!"
Thanks, George, that was really useful advice.
Comedy is art and is thus fluid. The second you define it, that moment is gone and your definition out of date. Good comedy can make you feel less alone. Great comedy will inspire you to act.
Agree with your take on George Carlin's advice never to vote. It's one thing to reject conventional wisdom; it's another thing to think all government is corrupt. Preserving one's outsider status as only outsiders have purity of purpose? I respect Mr. Carlin as a gadfly, but the world cannot work if everyone is a gadfly. Diogones of Sinope, considered the founder of the philosophical school of Cynicism, lived in a giant jar in Athens, delivering sermons to passersby, but also receiving donations so he could eat. He needed a government that allowed others to prosper so he could survive. There's no government if we don't participate.
Good points. The problem with “conservative comedy punches down” is that”punching down” is a matter of perspective because even in non-comedy everyone seems to think it’s their enemies who are powerful evil elites. The Republican assumes the Democrat is a rich hypocrite elitist smugly mocking their traditional values and the Democrat assumes the Republican is a bigoted rich elitist oppressing vulnerable groups. Why wouldn’t it be the same way with comedy?
And it’s often hard to even tell which way is punching down—imagine a joke where a waiter gets the better of a complaining customer. Surely the waiter is “down” from the customer because he is serving the customer. But what if the customer is a woman and the waiter is being a sexist jerk? Would it matter if the woman customer is white and the sexist waiter was black? Then it turns out the white woman customer is lower class and treating herself to a rare meal and the waiter is about to graduate Harvard Law and taking the job for a while until his trust fund comes through. Or should it matter more what the customer and waiter actually said to each other? Which one is punching down? Both, maybe?
Comedy is about subverting expectations, using overstatement and employing a mix of subtlety and absurdity. Where I think most people find something unfunny due to offensiveness (as opposed to just plainly unfunny due to a lack of humor) is where the cruelty of the comedy is in our opinion overwhelming the humor.
That was a long and dry way to say humor is subjective.
Ultimately, conservatism has become completely debased. A person who is truly a conservative, whose beliefs and practices are in line with the legitimate political philosophical tradition that traces to Burke and Mill, can have funny observations that reflect those beliefs. Harvey Kurtzman, Mort Sahl, Frank Zappa all identified to some extent as conservatives, to list the first names that come to mind. But, as Zappa said in the 80s, Republicans aren't conservatives, they are fascists.
Mike Judge has made me laugh satirizing aspects of liberal culture over the years, but he doesn't cross over into cheerleading for fascism. He never comes off as an advocate of repression. Carlin's occupation was Foole, but he worked for himself. Being the court jester for Trump is not the same thing.
Really good.
One name that came quickly to mind, when you were talking about Bob Hope as an example, was Dennis Miller. I saw him a few times on The Tonight Show and similar, after he'd left SNL, and I thought he always killed it, just sitting in the chair.
Until, that is, around 9/11, when he stopped pretending he was a "libertarian" or a "conservative, but socially liberal," and went full metal W fanboi. Even trying to factor that out, I thought he stopped being funny right around then. He just always sounded mean.
Time and time again we see these conservative 'comics' just being mean and cruel in the standup. And I can see why that appeals to mean people who also happen to be bigots. So I could see why it's uproariously funny to them when they beat up on innocent trans people just for existing. If the position is that trans people are an affront to nature, and shouldn't exist at all, it's all part of the "People that are different from me are invalid or not even people" that animates a lot of these chuds.
Eddie Murphy actually showed me a lot, even as large swathes of his popular standup routines really aged poorly. I do actually remember the funny parts of the standup specials (for example the bit about Jesse Jackson running for President).
Interestingly, I also recall in Raw, Eddie Murphy even had I suppose what counts as an apology in the 1980s where he addressed how nasty he was in joking about gay people in Delirious. And even that sorta-apology was better than what Dave Chappelle did.
Chappelle strikes me as a petulant dickhead, though a very funny comic. He got mileage for years, praised by fans for making fun of white people, though once he was a rich guy making fun of poor white people (punching down?) and of course women, it hit different. Then he made a lot of trans jokes at a time when regrettably a lot of comics did that shit, so when attitudes changed he faced the question of whether his jokes aged poorly and decided “how very dare you quest me” and doubled down. And he won’t shut the fuck up about trans people because he has his stupid point to prove.
A shame because otherwise he is a very funny standup.
Yeah that was sad to see him lose the plot in that way. I'd enjoyed his comedy. But I guess people change. I've not had the interest or desire to click on any of his videos or the like.
Forever mourn the loss of Hicks, gone too soon. A man that came through his alcohol soaked days to set himself to the task of scathing observer who pulled no punches.
As to Carlin, well, he is less of a hero to me. He would tell his audiences "Don't vote, I never have!"
Thanks, George, that was really useful advice.
Comedy is art and is thus fluid. The second you define it, that moment is gone and your definition out of date. Good comedy can make you feel less alone. Great comedy will inspire you to act.
Agree with your take on George Carlin's advice never to vote. It's one thing to reject conventional wisdom; it's another thing to think all government is corrupt. Preserving one's outsider status as only outsiders have purity of purpose? I respect Mr. Carlin as a gadfly, but the world cannot work if everyone is a gadfly. Diogones of Sinope, considered the founder of the philosophical school of Cynicism, lived in a giant jar in Athens, delivering sermons to passersby, but also receiving donations so he could eat. He needed a government that allowed others to prosper so he could survive. There's no government if we don't participate.
Good points. The problem with “conservative comedy punches down” is that”punching down” is a matter of perspective because even in non-comedy everyone seems to think it’s their enemies who are powerful evil elites. The Republican assumes the Democrat is a rich hypocrite elitist smugly mocking their traditional values and the Democrat assumes the Republican is a bigoted rich elitist oppressing vulnerable groups. Why wouldn’t it be the same way with comedy?
And it’s often hard to even tell which way is punching down—imagine a joke where a waiter gets the better of a complaining customer. Surely the waiter is “down” from the customer because he is serving the customer. But what if the customer is a woman and the waiter is being a sexist jerk? Would it matter if the woman customer is white and the sexist waiter was black? Then it turns out the white woman customer is lower class and treating herself to a rare meal and the waiter is about to graduate Harvard Law and taking the job for a while until his trust fund comes through. Or should it matter more what the customer and waiter actually said to each other? Which one is punching down? Both, maybe?
Comedy is about subverting expectations, using overstatement and employing a mix of subtlety and absurdity. Where I think most people find something unfunny due to offensiveness (as opposed to just plainly unfunny due to a lack of humor) is where the cruelty of the comedy is in our opinion overwhelming the humor.
That was a long and dry way to say humor is subjective.
Well said.