I consider any electorate that wants to put up a candidate and promote and fund that candidate and they lose? Well, you learned something and that is politics. What is happening isn’t working for anyone but those with the mega yachts and the barnacles that cling to the sides. It is time for big change in a big changing world. The populous is feeling the vibe and it is go time. Plug in and make. Little difference somewhere. It makes you feel better then keyboard cryin
Hong might hate holidays, but she has no policy proposals for ending them. Because of that, you can chalk it up to differences in opinion. Republicans have their own "silly" beliefs - like the sToLeN eLeCtiOn - but they have dozens of policy initiatives to inflict that "difference in opinion" on the rest of us.
I’m worried that Hong is a weak candidate (she tends to say things that don’t matter but are easy fodder for the right wing) for the general election but this is on the moderates for not promoting a viable alternative. Kind of like the Maine Senate race!
Assuming she wins the primary as expected, time for all hands on deck, work to promote her among moderates, and hit Tiffany like a bulldozer. My unsolicited advice for her is any time a reporter brings up some unfortunate tweet you made years ago, just tell them it’s fake news and why aren’t they more curious that Tom Tiffany has no problem with Trump being a pedophile? Attack the right hard enough and even non-leftists will be in your corner.
I've said this three times now today, but BELIEVE IN SOMETHING. Believe in something so fucking much that you're willing to lose rather than compromise, focus group, and triangulate.
Yeah, people hate change. They also hate the status quo. And people typically equate strong, passionate beliefs with leadership and honesty.
"Fuck yeah, everyone should have healthcare. Let's make it happen."
"You're goddamned right I want everyone to have the same rights. It's in the Declaration of Independence!"
"Yeah, I don't want panty-sniffing politicians getting between women and their doctors."
"Vaccines are fucking safe. The data proves it and every kid needs vaccines before they can start school unless they have a valid exemption from a non-quack doctor."
Hong has built a grassroots political movement, showing up throughout the state to help Democratic candidates in local elections, among other things that Crowley and the other moderate Dems haven’t done. Nothing builds support like having a state representative from a district 2 hours away show up to knock doors for a mayoral race. I think she’ll win the primary and will beat Tom Trump Tiffany.
Wisconsin, as one person I read recently, is NOT a 'purple', 'centrist' state...it's a polarized state and has been for a long time: It is the state that elected both Fighting Bob Lafollette and Joe McCarthy.
I hold that Clinton's fluke win in '92 has poisoned the Democratic Party with the 'Third Way' party line, AKA 'Maybe what the voters really crave is Republican Lite!' for decades.
If Ross Perot hadn't mounted his strong third party run, Clinton could well have lost.
Ever since the Dems have chased the mythical 'Center' at higher and higher velocities as the Republican Party has hurtled headlong into white supremacy theocratic fascism. Even Obama told us that we had to push him to do the things WE TOLD HIM WE WANTED the whole campaign.
We cannot 'triangulate' our way out of this, a substantial majority of the Democratic base realize this, and are pushing for equally substantial change; more to the point are tired of the national party for shitting on us time and time again.
"Get on the bus, fall in line, sit down and shut up" is the message the National Party organization has told us over and over and over again.
It may well work again this year, amid the hysterical fear mongering by the Republicans/MSM (witness Kristen Welker asking Abdul El-Sayed if he disavows things other people have said! And his masterful retort "I am happy to discuss my own words") but each turn of that cycle has caused exponentially more damage to the country as the Republican Party has gone wilding on democracy and the rule of law.
If the base had missed the entire context of why Liz Cheney was there, then the base has no business telling MAGA cultists they're stupid. There was one, ONE reason, and the polls claimed it was all working.
It must be some kind of corollary to Murc’s Law; Democratic voters have no agency of their own. If Democratic candidates don’t say precisely the correct words, in precisely the right tone and run a campaign that is virtually flawless, striking the proper chord with every Democratic demographic from Blue Dog to DSA, then Democratic voters have no choice but to stay home and cede control to the fascists.
There's a huge difference between demanding perfection from a democratic candidate and being angry they were campaigning with a fucking traitor to the country who was only there to try and get a cabinet position and springboard that into a presidential run.
It's the same kind of "when are my Republican friends across the aisle going to stand up for their country over their party" horseshit. Appealing to Republican voters who are never, at any point in their lives, going to vote blue.
I was not responding to you specifically, just pointing out a major problem with Democratic politics. I can’t say that campaigning with Cheney was not a mistake, but I do take Seth’s point.
Now, if you felt that it was truly a mistake on Harris’ part, fine, it’s a reasonable position. However, if you did not vote for Harris because of it, then you just proved my point.
Yes, exactly. Seems to me if one actually gave a damn about the fate of the Palestinian people then the proper action would not be to leave their fates solely in the hands of Trump and Netanyahu.
She was done in politics then, and she's extra done now. She flushed her career down the drain by doing *one* right thing. Nobody will ever vote for her again.
Oh fuck yeah. I'd be willing to bet money they voted for trump anyway. The only difference between “never trump” Republicans and the average maga cultist is that the average maga cultist is honest about what they are as opposed to the “never trump” fuckbags pretending to be something they're not.
Some, perhaps, but it looks like a large number of former Republicans have become Democrats for good (even liberals). It comes from seeing what a fraud their old party had become, feeling like fools for having taken it in good faith, then in time hearing more from their new liberal allies and being outside their old bubbles. These people will never even trust a Rubio after that.
Problem is they’re outnumbered by the apolitical and wavy gravy dipshits who only joined the Republicans as a result of Trump and RFK.
A large number of “former” Republicans say they've become Democrats or liberals.
Republicans lie like they breathe, just like their God king. Statistically speaking a few of them may have changed, but I doubt that number even breaks triple digits in the Continental US.
Republicans are a lost cause both as a party and individually. Assuming any of them will ever make genuine change is the worst kind of wish casting. The kind of change you're talking about here would require the ability and willingness to self reflect and admit wrongdoing, which would make it damn near impossible for them to be Republicans to begin with.
They prefer their fascism with a little more class...They still LOVE the message, they're just not too hot on the messenger. fortunately for us there can BE no clean break from Trump and Trumpism without coming out permanently covered in shit
When I consider the motley collection of right wing, cowardly, blatantly xenophobic or out right racist nut jobs in the GOP who have been elected and re-elected, I think the need for Democrats trying to appeal to the blandest of the bland centrist candidates is an idea whose time is long dead.
It is a serious mistake to self-homogenize. It is also a mistake to pretend to be something you are not. Voters will accept a few outlying views if they perceive the candidate is real. For Democrats, the time is ripe for candidates who stand up proudly and advocate for the real needs of their voters, and also push back hard against the right wing rhetoric and grievance pushers. Show some spine, and let the chips fall.
", but you’ll recall that it’s been almost 10 years since Donald Trump first won the presidency. If the Democratic Party was subject to a “hostile takeover,” why didn’t it come from the all those anti-Trump, “country over party” conservatives? "
And over those 10 years centrist democrats have had every opportunity to become the opposition party...EVEN IF you don't 'like' Hong or the DSA or progressives, 10 years from now, seen in 20/20 hindsight, if we discovered that electing her (and her (and my) ilk)) was the wrong choice, ..It will STILL HAVE BEED THE RIGHT choice to make, SIMPLY BECAUSE it was different from doing the SAME GODDAMN THING that hasn't worked in 30 fucking years
THANK YOU. If the Dems haven’t made any headway in getting elected it’s because it fall right in line with stupidly is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
That’s where I usually land as well. I have been voting for establishment Democrats since 1982, and the only place it has gotten us is in MAGA jail. And yet, the powers that be in the party continually try and force the same old slop down our throats, trying to convince us that this ilk is what will save the republic, when frankly it’s a big reason we are where we are today. Democratic voters are now the Republican voters of 2016, sick of being overlooked and taken for granted by the “elites”, while the old party fights desperately to beat it back. It will fail, just like it did on their side then. I only hope we make better choices than they did in our fury.
Good points. One encouraging sign - after El-Sayed's victory last week, many establishment Dems endorsed him for the general election. Even Schumer did so! It's these "moderate" Dem groups like the Third Way, who are freaking out about the DSA and progressive victories.
yeah the concessions by McMorrow and Stevens were a class act...This is what vote blue no matter who looks like. Its worth remembering how ugly the primary between Obama and HRC were as well...Its just part of the 'game'....
Simply put, they HAD their chance to make their case in a TIMELY manner and they failed to do so. Treat them the same way you would treat ANY employee who failed to do what they were HIRED for
I'm not a Wisconsin voter, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I admit I am skeptical about Francesca Hong as a statewide candidate (it's one thing to walk back "defund the police", quite another to defend wanting to cancel Thanksgiving at one time because of colonialism). But at least she has some fire to her! Some clear desire to tackle issues straight on, and name names while doing so. I mean, no one wants a data center! Absolutely no one! Low hanging fruit, and yet one the "establishment preferred" candidate is afraid to touch, as if it were a live wire. Come on! Show some effing guts, people! GOP congressional candidates are overperforming their (very) unpopular leader, so holding onto/picking up seats is no given, especially considering the Democratic party overall is less popular than Trump right now. If Hong wins, it won't be because of her politics, it will be because she's not afraid of a street brawl. If "establishment Dems" want to keep the progressive tide at bay, it's long past time to show a little sense of the urgency the moment requires. Only time will tell.
It’s not just dumb tweets, it’s being caught flat footed when asked about them now. (Not that it means anything policy wise, but it shows poor political skills when we need pit fighters). Called on a dumb tweet, just say “you got it out of context, and you seem strangely uncurious that my opponent vowed to protect Trump from any Epstein Files investigation. Why doesn’t child rape bother you more than my misread tweets?”
I do think telling Americans the traditions they cherish are mired in colonialism and racism and should be abolished is not a winning electoral strategy.
Exactly...It was such an easy thing for her NOT to have done that...Kind of an amateur move.
I HATE discussions over 'electability' because its such a cynical centrist calculus to make, yet I can't help NOT doing it now.
Mamdani and AOC would never have made a gaffe like that, a gaffe frankly, that REALLY wouldn't be a gaffe in a country less stupid than current America is...Because its clear what Hong meant to convey, its just that you cant hand ammo to the people within the democratic coalition who are against you... (fuck what republicans think, if they can't dig up dirt on you they'll just make something up out of LITTEBOXES INCLASSROOMS whole cloth)
I don’t mind the electability issue so much-I mean, candidates do have to actually win the seat to advance their priorities-as the old guard’s insistence that what was “electable” in 1992 is what is electable in 2026. It’s not, and Republicans know this! They learned it the hard way in 2016. Dems are still giving WAY too much weight to the opinions of fossils like Carville and the scare tactics of the now gutter racist GOP (ooo, are they going to call a native born Muslim citizen a jihadist now? Oh, they already did, ok). It’s crazymaking.
Fortunately the smears are having the OPPOSITE effect...The progressive left is moving into 'Teflon' territory to some extent.
Like how Schumer's petty refusal to endorse Mamdani actually HELPED Mamdani more than it hurt him...an endorsement from Schumer THEN would have actually been a little 'gross'...Chuck DOES seem to have gotten the memo per endorsing El-Sayed...Which is a weird endorsement considering El-Sayed's unambiguous take on Israel and Gaza!
My only guess per the non-endorsement of Mamdani is that he was making a kind of NY calculus...being from the same state and all
Well in the end you get the sway of Democrats by saying the Pretty Words What Democrats Like, so she has to own it and back it up. In the end, Democrats need to be perfect, Republicans only need *excuses* to get votes.
Well then...
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2026-primary-elections/wisconsin-governor-results
I consider any electorate that wants to put up a candidate and promote and fund that candidate and they lose? Well, you learned something and that is politics. What is happening isn’t working for anyone but those with the mega yachts and the barnacles that cling to the sides. It is time for big change in a big changing world. The populous is feeling the vibe and it is go time. Plug in and make. Little difference somewhere. It makes you feel better then keyboard cryin
Hong might hate holidays, but she has no policy proposals for ending them. Because of that, you can chalk it up to differences in opinion. Republicans have their own "silly" beliefs - like the sToLeN eLeCtiOn - but they have dozens of policy initiatives to inflict that "difference in opinion" on the rest of us.
I’m worried that Hong is a weak candidate (she tends to say things that don’t matter but are easy fodder for the right wing) for the general election but this is on the moderates for not promoting a viable alternative. Kind of like the Maine Senate race!
Assuming she wins the primary as expected, time for all hands on deck, work to promote her among moderates, and hit Tiffany like a bulldozer. My unsolicited advice for her is any time a reporter brings up some unfortunate tweet you made years ago, just tell them it’s fake news and why aren’t they more curious that Tom Tiffany has no problem with Trump being a pedophile? Attack the right hard enough and even non-leftists will be in your corner.
I'm inclined to agree on all counts.
I've said this three times now today, but BELIEVE IN SOMETHING. Believe in something so fucking much that you're willing to lose rather than compromise, focus group, and triangulate.
Yeah, people hate change. They also hate the status quo. And people typically equate strong, passionate beliefs with leadership and honesty.
"Fuck yeah, everyone should have healthcare. Let's make it happen."
"You're goddamned right I want everyone to have the same rights. It's in the Declaration of Independence!"
"Yeah, I don't want panty-sniffing politicians getting between women and their doctors."
"Vaccines are fucking safe. The data proves it and every kid needs vaccines before they can start school unless they have a valid exemption from a non-quack doctor."
Hong has built a grassroots political movement, showing up throughout the state to help Democratic candidates in local elections, among other things that Crowley and the other moderate Dems haven’t done. Nothing builds support like having a state representative from a district 2 hours away show up to knock doors for a mayoral race. I think she’ll win the primary and will beat Tom Trump Tiffany.
Wisconsin, as one person I read recently, is NOT a 'purple', 'centrist' state...it's a polarized state and has been for a long time: It is the state that elected both Fighting Bob Lafollette and Joe McCarthy.
I hold that Clinton's fluke win in '92 has poisoned the Democratic Party with the 'Third Way' party line, AKA 'Maybe what the voters really crave is Republican Lite!' for decades.
If Ross Perot hadn't mounted his strong third party run, Clinton could well have lost.
Ever since the Dems have chased the mythical 'Center' at higher and higher velocities as the Republican Party has hurtled headlong into white supremacy theocratic fascism. Even Obama told us that we had to push him to do the things WE TOLD HIM WE WANTED the whole campaign.
We cannot 'triangulate' our way out of this, a substantial majority of the Democratic base realize this, and are pushing for equally substantial change; more to the point are tired of the national party for shitting on us time and time again.
"Get on the bus, fall in line, sit down and shut up" is the message the National Party organization has told us over and over and over again.
It may well work again this year, amid the hysterical fear mongering by the Republicans/MSM (witness Kristen Welker asking Abdul El-Sayed if he disavows things other people have said! And his masterful retort "I am happy to discuss my own words") but each turn of that cycle has caused exponentially more damage to the country as the Republican Party has gone wilding on democracy and the rule of law.
Helpful analysis. We’ll soon see.
She's so cool. Well people need to make sure they are ready to go and do the thing. And whatever FUD will be created about her, ignore it and vote.
Kamala campaigning with Liz fucking Cheney was such a goddamn middle finger to the actual democratic base.
If the base had missed the entire context of why Liz Cheney was there, then the base has no business telling MAGA cultists they're stupid. There was one, ONE reason, and the polls claimed it was all working.
It must be some kind of corollary to Murc’s Law; Democratic voters have no agency of their own. If Democratic candidates don’t say precisely the correct words, in precisely the right tone and run a campaign that is virtually flawless, striking the proper chord with every Democratic demographic from Blue Dog to DSA, then Democratic voters have no choice but to stay home and cede control to the fascists.
There's a huge difference between demanding perfection from a democratic candidate and being angry they were campaigning with a fucking traitor to the country who was only there to try and get a cabinet position and springboard that into a presidential run.
It's the same kind of "when are my Republican friends across the aisle going to stand up for their country over their party" horseshit. Appealing to Republican voters who are never, at any point in their lives, going to vote blue.
I was not responding to you specifically, just pointing out a major problem with Democratic politics. I can’t say that campaigning with Cheney was not a mistake, but I do take Seth’s point.
Now, if you felt that it was truly a mistake on Harris’ part, fine, it’s a reasonable position. However, if you did not vote for Harris because of it, then you just proved my point.
I voted for harris without a second thought and fought a bunch of people online who said they wouldn't because genocide Joe, killer Kamala etc.
Yes, exactly. Seems to me if one actually gave a damn about the fate of the Palestinian people then the proper action would not be to leave their fates solely in the hands of Trump and Netanyahu.
Cheney was there to inflate her own chances of a presidential run. That's it.
She was done in politics then, and she's extra done now. She flushed her career down the drain by doing *one* right thing. Nobody will ever vote for her again.
She's a lifelong Republican politician. She's fundamentally incapable of acting that selfless.
Watch how fast all the never trumpers go back to the gop once trump is gone. They will absolutely vote for a president Vance or Rubio.
Oh fuck yeah. I'd be willing to bet money they voted for trump anyway. The only difference between “never trump” Republicans and the average maga cultist is that the average maga cultist is honest about what they are as opposed to the “never trump” fuckbags pretending to be something they're not.
Some, perhaps, but it looks like a large number of former Republicans have become Democrats for good (even liberals). It comes from seeing what a fraud their old party had become, feeling like fools for having taken it in good faith, then in time hearing more from their new liberal allies and being outside their old bubbles. These people will never even trust a Rubio after that.
Problem is they’re outnumbered by the apolitical and wavy gravy dipshits who only joined the Republicans as a result of Trump and RFK.
A large number of “former” Republicans say they've become Democrats or liberals.
Republicans lie like they breathe, just like their God king. Statistically speaking a few of them may have changed, but I doubt that number even breaks triple digits in the Continental US.
Republicans are a lost cause both as a party and individually. Assuming any of them will ever make genuine change is the worst kind of wish casting. The kind of change you're talking about here would require the ability and willingness to self reflect and admit wrongdoing, which would make it damn near impossible for them to be Republicans to begin with.
They prefer their fascism with a little more class...They still LOVE the message, they're just not too hot on the messenger. fortunately for us there can BE no clean break from Trump and Trumpism without coming out permanently covered in shit
When I consider the motley collection of right wing, cowardly, blatantly xenophobic or out right racist nut jobs in the GOP who have been elected and re-elected, I think the need for Democrats trying to appeal to the blandest of the bland centrist candidates is an idea whose time is long dead.
It is a serious mistake to self-homogenize. It is also a mistake to pretend to be something you are not. Voters will accept a few outlying views if they perceive the candidate is real. For Democrats, the time is ripe for candidates who stand up proudly and advocate for the real needs of their voters, and also push back hard against the right wing rhetoric and grievance pushers. Show some spine, and let the chips fall.
"self-homogenize."
chef's kiss for that one!
", but you’ll recall that it’s been almost 10 years since Donald Trump first won the presidency. If the Democratic Party was subject to a “hostile takeover,” why didn’t it come from the all those anti-Trump, “country over party” conservatives? "
And over those 10 years centrist democrats have had every opportunity to become the opposition party...EVEN IF you don't 'like' Hong or the DSA or progressives, 10 years from now, seen in 20/20 hindsight, if we discovered that electing her (and her (and my) ilk)) was the wrong choice, ..It will STILL HAVE BEED THE RIGHT choice to make, SIMPLY BECAUSE it was different from doing the SAME GODDAMN THING that hasn't worked in 30 fucking years
Excellent point
THANK YOU. If the Dems haven’t made any headway in getting elected it’s because it fall right in line with stupidly is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
That’s where I usually land as well. I have been voting for establishment Democrats since 1982, and the only place it has gotten us is in MAGA jail. And yet, the powers that be in the party continually try and force the same old slop down our throats, trying to convince us that this ilk is what will save the republic, when frankly it’s a big reason we are where we are today. Democratic voters are now the Republican voters of 2016, sick of being overlooked and taken for granted by the “elites”, while the old party fights desperately to beat it back. It will fail, just like it did on their side then. I only hope we make better choices than they did in our fury.
Good points. One encouraging sign - after El-Sayed's victory last week, many establishment Dems endorsed him for the general election. Even Schumer did so! It's these "moderate" Dem groups like the Third Way, who are freaking out about the DSA and progressive victories.
Well, them and writers like Jonathan Chait and Republican defectors like David Frum. It's so tiresome.
yeah the concessions by McMorrow and Stevens were a class act...This is what vote blue no matter who looks like. Its worth remembering how ugly the primary between Obama and HRC were as well...Its just part of the 'game'....
Simply put, they HAD their chance to make their case in a TIMELY manner and they failed to do so. Treat them the same way you would treat ANY employee who failed to do what they were HIRED for
I'm not a Wisconsin voter, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I admit I am skeptical about Francesca Hong as a statewide candidate (it's one thing to walk back "defund the police", quite another to defend wanting to cancel Thanksgiving at one time because of colonialism). But at least she has some fire to her! Some clear desire to tackle issues straight on, and name names while doing so. I mean, no one wants a data center! Absolutely no one! Low hanging fruit, and yet one the "establishment preferred" candidate is afraid to touch, as if it were a live wire. Come on! Show some effing guts, people! GOP congressional candidates are overperforming their (very) unpopular leader, so holding onto/picking up seats is no given, especially considering the Democratic party overall is less popular than Trump right now. If Hong wins, it won't be because of her politics, it will be because she's not afraid of a street brawl. If "establishment Dems" want to keep the progressive tide at bay, it's long past time to show a little sense of the urgency the moment requires. Only time will tell.
It’s not just dumb tweets, it’s being caught flat footed when asked about them now. (Not that it means anything policy wise, but it shows poor political skills when we need pit fighters). Called on a dumb tweet, just say “you got it out of context, and you seem strangely uncurious that my opponent vowed to protect Trump from any Epstein Files investigation. Why doesn’t child rape bother you more than my misread tweets?”
That only works if it’s actually out of context, though
"I'm not a Wisconsin voter, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I admit I am skeptical about Francesca Hong as a statewide candidate "
I am too, and I SO don't want to be...
This ball is for centrists to drop, and since that's ALL their fucking good at. Well...
I do think telling Americans the traditions they cherish are mired in colonialism and racism and should be abolished is not a winning electoral strategy.
Even though it’s the truth. It’s nothing personal, just observing systems of thought at work.
Well, maybe, but not the point really.
Exactly...It was such an easy thing for her NOT to have done that...Kind of an amateur move.
I HATE discussions over 'electability' because its such a cynical centrist calculus to make, yet I can't help NOT doing it now.
Mamdani and AOC would never have made a gaffe like that, a gaffe frankly, that REALLY wouldn't be a gaffe in a country less stupid than current America is...Because its clear what Hong meant to convey, its just that you cant hand ammo to the people within the democratic coalition who are against you... (fuck what republicans think, if they can't dig up dirt on you they'll just make something up out of LITTEBOXES INCLASSROOMS whole cloth)
I don’t mind the electability issue so much-I mean, candidates do have to actually win the seat to advance their priorities-as the old guard’s insistence that what was “electable” in 1992 is what is electable in 2026. It’s not, and Republicans know this! They learned it the hard way in 2016. Dems are still giving WAY too much weight to the opinions of fossils like Carville and the scare tactics of the now gutter racist GOP (ooo, are they going to call a native born Muslim citizen a jihadist now? Oh, they already did, ok). It’s crazymaking.
Fortunately the smears are having the OPPOSITE effect...The progressive left is moving into 'Teflon' territory to some extent.
Like how Schumer's petty refusal to endorse Mamdani actually HELPED Mamdani more than it hurt him...an endorsement from Schumer THEN would have actually been a little 'gross'...Chuck DOES seem to have gotten the memo per endorsing El-Sayed...Which is a weird endorsement considering El-Sayed's unambiguous take on Israel and Gaza!
My only guess per the non-endorsement of Mamdani is that he was making a kind of NY calculus...being from the same state and all
yup
Well in the end you get the sway of Democrats by saying the Pretty Words What Democrats Like, so she has to own it and back it up. In the end, Democrats need to be perfect, Republicans only need *excuses* to get votes.
Life isn't fair sometimes, but we still all know the rules.