My own dentist has tried to get the city of Tucson to add fluoride to our water supply only to be blocked by toothless anti-fluoridation folks. Tucson is only a little smaller than Portland...:-(
It's stuff like this that makes me think of Wells' "The Time Machine." Americans are the early stages of the Eloi, but it's processed processed foods we're eating, not fruit.
I never watched Friends, but this interplay between Phoebe and Ross reminded me that the subtext of the informed vs. uninformed characters occurs in other contemporary sitcoms. Notoriously bigoted and loudmouthed Archie Bunker regularly argued with his politically liberal son-in-law, Michael Stivic, and called him “Meathead.” Same plot point existed in other Norman Lear productions, like the “All in the Family” spinoff Maude, in which Maude’s foil was her neighbor Arthur, her pompous Republican windbag. It’s a pretty nifty and effective way to convey the politics of awareness vs. ignorance and have viewers recognize the dynamic in their own relationships with others.
(Apologies to Stephen, who of course already knows all this)
The big difference to my mind was that Archie was at least intended to be an "idiot" whose opinions and explanations for his opinions were meant to be laughed at. Mike sometimes presented the idiot opinion, but it was usually in conveying his sexist attitudes toward his wife.
With Phoebe though, sure she was supposed to be a "ditz" but at least when she went head to head with Ross the idea was that he was the pompous windbag to laugh at and that she might have a point. In that evolution argument example, it ended with her giving a long speech where she essentially said "until only a few hundred years ago, the best scientists believed all kinds of nonsense, and you can't even concede one little bit that what you believe could be wrong?" and Ross was pretty much reduced to a whimper--the subtext being "wow, Phoebe has a point here, maybe the experts are wrong and the plucky "ditz" knows better".
There is a strain running through pop culture where the experts are just smug and wrong, while the "common man" has the "common sense" that beat expertise every time.
Yes, and the scientists didn’t “believe all kinds of nonsense,” either. They followed a scientific method, and yes, that led to theories that were later proved incorrect but it wasn’t random nonsense, like what Phoebe believes. This came up a lot during covid when conspiracy theorists would cry foul if the guidance changed suddenly over a *novel pandemic.* When the delta variant resulted in vaccine breakthroughs, this was pointed to as evidence that vaccines didn’t work at all, which was totally not the case.
Exactly--these "common men" don't grasp that the whole point of science is to make the best determinations from the available evidence, to constantly hone that method, and adjust as new evidence emerges. It's never meant as "this is the end all and be all answer to the question" but rather "this is where we are led to now". It's why experts in 2020 were changing their advice re: masks--they were adjusting based on new information! But the morons take that and say "see, we can't trust anything they say, let's instead listen to that dipshit from high school on Facebook".
And this has been reinforced in this country, because what is more fun than sneering at a pompous expert?
What's counterintuitive is that Science as we know it is only a little over 200 years old...There were millenia of heuristic applications and 'natural philosophy' but nothing that would later become peer review, consensus, methodology, concepts like double blind experiments, control groups etc etc etc....And theoretically science HAS an expiration date...IOW its possible for there to be a time (not too far off) where everything knowable about the physical universe is KNOWN...Now TECH OTOH as a product of science and could go on indefinitely....
I mean ca. 5 years ago the last of the 'particles' that make up EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE except dark energy was discovered...SO much of what's happening in science is just filling in the details since 'science' is cumulative
'There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
- Issac Asimov 1980
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.'
I wonder how those anti experts feel when they need heart surgery. Do they go to the butcher? Guy can handle a knife and organs.
I never thought I’d be smarter than half the population, with my creative writing degree from a public university, and substituting marching band for science in high school.
I absolutely used the "if masks don't work then the next time you have surgery tell the surgeon to not wear a mask" and they look at me like I was nuts. Then they said "Well masks do SOME stuff...."
Seriously, WTF, make a fucking connection in your brain, people.
Although “Phoebe Buffay is annoying but mostly harmless because she doesn’t seem like someone who actually participates in the political process,” I think that same Phoebe, both metaphorical and literal, is largely responsible for creating the current climate and narrative through which we are suffering.
The Phoebe character is part of a long pop culture theme that "experts" are usually wrong about everything, "common sense" is what matters--it's part of the greater "slobs vs. snobs" narrative (show me one example where the snobs were the ones we were supposed to root for over the slobs).
And audiences, rather than taking it as a "this is all just for laughs" approach have embedded this idea that the experts are usually wrong (haven't they been in the past? Didn't the experts tell us the world was flat once? So why should we believe them now that they say it is round?) and "question everything" means no longer believing in anything, regardless of logic or facts, because logic and facts are themselves to be questioned.
exactly, because like you indicated, this was a LONG standing cultural meme that showed up a LOT...and over time a mind can be poisoned with stupid ideas without that person knowing how they GOT to that sorry state of credulity
And don't forget it's a worn trope in movies as well... the 'scientists' can't see the threat of the meteor/dinosaur/earthquake or can't deal with it or are useless Cassandras but the REAL heros are the lovely protagonists who meet the threat head on with guns, helicopters and spaceships...
It's always more fun watching plucky hardscrabble heroes like Bruce Willis, the deep sea driller, solve the asteroid problem rather than putting actual NASA astronauts on the thing.
To be fair, the entire premise of that wretched film was that they needed people with that specific expertise to go there and do it...they didn't have time to train up actual astronauts.
Actually, there is no evidence that all of the experts ever believed that the earth was flat. Some may have done so, but most throughout history, including in the Middle Ages, knew that the earth was a sphere. This was based upon observation - sailors noted the curvature of the earth when on the open sea, and folks who climbed high enough mountains, or even trees, also noted that.
Your point is valid, however, logic and facts aren't valid, or anyone's beliefs, feelings, or what-have-you, are as valid as anyone else's facts and logic. Scientists are know-it-alls, and it's always fun when they get their comeuppance. In many movies, "scientists" are quite unethical when conducting experiments, even if their goals are worthy. Hollywood is no friend to logic and facts.
I think it is at ca. 14 miles out to sea where tall ships 'disappear'...And next time you're at the beach scan the ocean horizon quickly all the way from one side to the other and you notice the curve. it is DEFINITELY NOT flat...
I think way back when, the VAST majority of human beings didn't even give the CONCEPT of a 'planet' one thought or the other. For the majority of human existence, people weren't even AWARE that there WERE other people in places they couldn't have imagined. The 'shape' of the world just wasn't something that anyone other than a VERY FEW intellectuals would wonder about
That’s a good point. The “mad scientist” character in fiction is played for laughs in comedies, and as a threat to humanity in darker movies. It really has been part of the evolving cultural perception of scientists and other highly educated folks as untrustworthy and insufferable know-it-alls who lack a “common sense” approach to life.
Oh yeah, even during the Greek ages the scientists realized it was round, though they differed on approximate size. But to the "just asking questions" crowd, the "experts" in the past were wrong about things, so why listen to "experts" now? Maybe they're wrong again!
They don't realize that science is cumulative...You don't have to reestablish the theory of heliocentrism from scratch every time you point a deep space telescope at the new black hole you found...you don't have to reestablish the entire theory of evolution every time you find an intriguing fossil.
You know, it's depressing that fictional know-nothingism is now our reality. I assume too that since social media as we know it didn't exist in 1995, the Phoebes couldn't band together and metastasize. And Republicans hadn't figured out how to channel this yet. They did now and it's an extremely important part of their rightwing media human centipede.
After all, for the Phoebes, this is a good way to get one up on those eggheads and nerds who "think" they're smarter than you. And conspiracy thinking and woo make you feel special. You're not like everyone else when you believe that fluoride in the concentrations it exists in tap water is the worst thing ever. You're part of a unique club!
The brilliant analogies in this article made me weep a little bit, because it is true. And well this was the clear preference of those who voted, as we now fight to bring our health care back to the 1800s or earlier. (For the regular people; the rich will still have their vaccinations and top-of-the-line health care)
yup...I'm liking the internet less and less the older I get. I think it's behind ALL or our problems in some way or the other...per your post
"I assume too that since social media as we know it didn't exist in 1995, the Phoebes couldn't band together and metastasize."
and THERE it is...A way for lonely antisocial people to FIND each other whereas BEFORE there was no mechanism to DO that, and that inability was a GOOD THING...Also, internet connections are much more manageable for antisocial types who can limit the time spent with each other as well...Because remember, they don't like EACH OTHER either. But the internet create a kind of solidarity that works for them
As a child of the 50s and 60s, I remember the great fluoridated-water debate. IIRC, there also was no such thing as fluoride toothpaste, which meant Cavity City Terror Time at the dentist. That changed gradually once we added fluoride to the water, and drillings and fillings decreased. My kids had very little experience with tooth decay, and my 14-year-old granddaughter has had nary a one.
I wonder if there is a name for this effect; there was an example of this in COVID where the more people became vaccinated, the less severe the outbreaks got and so it went away from recent mind. This has happened with a lot of childhood illnesses.
I grew up before the chickenpox vaccine, for example. Getting chickenpox SUCKED. Obviously much better than if you're an adult though.
I remember having chicken pox, mumps, and German measles when I was a child. A couple of elementary-school classmates wore heavy leg braces because of polio. These were awful diseases, which were studied and then eradicated by scientific research and development. And yes, it’s like the further in time we move away from those Eureka! moments, the more eager we are to disappear them, along with the problems they solved, as a bad dream we never want to think about anymore. So we don’t, until they rear their ugly heads again.
I blame the MSM for the dumbing down of America. They sanewashed not just trump, but RFK the Lesser, and other crackpots to the extent that many think that they are right, and the real scientists and real experts are wrong.
Didn’t Phoebe also think a picture of Einstein was her grandfather? Back in the ‘90s I thought she was so extremely misinformed that no one could believe it possible to be like that in real life. At worst, she was an extended dumb blonde joke. Now that we know 48% of America is like her or even more deluded, I think we need the Phoebe who could only go to a concert if the seats were further away than the band’s restraining order against her.
What worries me is that in the big tradeoff where Democrats are winning voters of reason and Republicans are winning voters of dumbassery, Republicans will be getting the majority.
Obviously Democrats shouldn't surrender to dumbassery like Jared Polis thinks they should, but there has to be a way to win despite this.
Brian Tyler Cohen announced "Chorus Media," maybe that is a chance. Unlike Air America and Current, it's going to be an attempt to level the playing field in the online space by uniting progressive media creators.
And this is a battle we have to fight on the online streets with those we know personally. Asking a lot of "why" and using the Socratic method is probably our only defense. Because the thing about conspiracy thinking and what leads to cults is, usually the victim has to get themselves out of it. They have to wean themselves from the dopamine source, because the way conspiracy content is monetized now really incentivizes identifying with and attaching to it. And that is a tough row to hoe.
Gotta figure something out. And of course a lot comes down to creating our own communication channels. You can never win over people when they're getting the message from your opponents.
My girl Leslie Nope knew:
"On my side, I have facts, science, and reason. All he has is fear-mongering.
Oh, my God, he's gonna win."
"𝘍𝘰𝘳 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘦, 𝘗𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘥, 𝘖𝘳𝘦𝘨𝘰𝘯 𝘩𝘢𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘶𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘭𝘶𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘥𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘸𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘳. 𝘗𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘳𝘦𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘮𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥’𝘷𝘦 𝘢𝘥𝘥𝘦𝘥 𝘧𝘭𝘶𝘰𝘳𝘪𝘥𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘱𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘪𝘤 𝘸𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘯 1956, 1962, 1980, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 2013."
My own dentist has tried to get the city of Tucson to add fluoride to our water supply only to be blocked by toothless anti-fluoridation folks. Tucson is only a little smaller than Portland...:-(
It's stuff like this that makes me think of Wells' "The Time Machine." Americans are the early stages of the Eloi, but it's processed processed foods we're eating, not fruit.
I never watched Friends, but this interplay between Phoebe and Ross reminded me that the subtext of the informed vs. uninformed characters occurs in other contemporary sitcoms. Notoriously bigoted and loudmouthed Archie Bunker regularly argued with his politically liberal son-in-law, Michael Stivic, and called him “Meathead.” Same plot point existed in other Norman Lear productions, like the “All in the Family” spinoff Maude, in which Maude’s foil was her neighbor Arthur, her pompous Republican windbag. It’s a pretty nifty and effective way to convey the politics of awareness vs. ignorance and have viewers recognize the dynamic in their own relationships with others.
(Apologies to Stephen, who of course already knows all this)
The big difference to my mind was that Archie was at least intended to be an "idiot" whose opinions and explanations for his opinions were meant to be laughed at. Mike sometimes presented the idiot opinion, but it was usually in conveying his sexist attitudes toward his wife.
With Phoebe though, sure she was supposed to be a "ditz" but at least when she went head to head with Ross the idea was that he was the pompous windbag to laugh at and that she might have a point. In that evolution argument example, it ended with her giving a long speech where she essentially said "until only a few hundred years ago, the best scientists believed all kinds of nonsense, and you can't even concede one little bit that what you believe could be wrong?" and Ross was pretty much reduced to a whimper--the subtext being "wow, Phoebe has a point here, maybe the experts are wrong and the plucky "ditz" knows better".
There is a strain running through pop culture where the experts are just smug and wrong, while the "common man" has the "common sense" that beat expertise every time.
Yes, and the scientists didn’t “believe all kinds of nonsense,” either. They followed a scientific method, and yes, that led to theories that were later proved incorrect but it wasn’t random nonsense, like what Phoebe believes. This came up a lot during covid when conspiracy theorists would cry foul if the guidance changed suddenly over a *novel pandemic.* When the delta variant resulted in vaccine breakthroughs, this was pointed to as evidence that vaccines didn’t work at all, which was totally not the case.
So frustrating!
Exactly--these "common men" don't grasp that the whole point of science is to make the best determinations from the available evidence, to constantly hone that method, and adjust as new evidence emerges. It's never meant as "this is the end all and be all answer to the question" but rather "this is where we are led to now". It's why experts in 2020 were changing their advice re: masks--they were adjusting based on new information! But the morons take that and say "see, we can't trust anything they say, let's instead listen to that dipshit from high school on Facebook".
And this has been reinforced in this country, because what is more fun than sneering at a pompous expert?
What's counterintuitive is that Science as we know it is only a little over 200 years old...There were millenia of heuristic applications and 'natural philosophy' but nothing that would later become peer review, consensus, methodology, concepts like double blind experiments, control groups etc etc etc....And theoretically science HAS an expiration date...IOW its possible for there to be a time (not too far off) where everything knowable about the physical universe is KNOWN...Now TECH OTOH as a product of science and could go on indefinitely....
I mean ca. 5 years ago the last of the 'particles' that make up EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE except dark energy was discovered...SO much of what's happening in science is just filling in the details since 'science' is cumulative
'There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
- Issac Asimov 1980
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.'
- Asimov, again.
I wonder how those anti experts feel when they need heart surgery. Do they go to the butcher? Guy can handle a knife and organs.
I never thought I’d be smarter than half the population, with my creative writing degree from a public university, and substituting marching band for science in high school.
I absolutely used the "if masks don't work then the next time you have surgery tell the surgeon to not wear a mask" and they look at me like I was nuts. Then they said "Well masks do SOME stuff...."
Seriously, WTF, make a fucking connection in your brain, people.
Butcher? I go to my local barber for tonsorial and surgical procedures!
That's what the red stripe on the pole means!
Although “Phoebe Buffay is annoying but mostly harmless because she doesn’t seem like someone who actually participates in the political process,” I think that same Phoebe, both metaphorical and literal, is largely responsible for creating the current climate and narrative through which we are suffering.
The Phoebe character is part of a long pop culture theme that "experts" are usually wrong about everything, "common sense" is what matters--it's part of the greater "slobs vs. snobs" narrative (show me one example where the snobs were the ones we were supposed to root for over the slobs).
And audiences, rather than taking it as a "this is all just for laughs" approach have embedded this idea that the experts are usually wrong (haven't they been in the past? Didn't the experts tell us the world was flat once? So why should we believe them now that they say it is round?) and "question everything" means no longer believing in anything, regardless of logic or facts, because logic and facts are themselves to be questioned.
exactly, because like you indicated, this was a LONG standing cultural meme that showed up a LOT...and over time a mind can be poisoned with stupid ideas without that person knowing how they GOT to that sorry state of credulity
And don't forget it's a worn trope in movies as well... the 'scientists' can't see the threat of the meteor/dinosaur/earthquake or can't deal with it or are useless Cassandras but the REAL heros are the lovely protagonists who meet the threat head on with guns, helicopters and spaceships...
stupid scientists!!
It's always more fun watching plucky hardscrabble heroes like Bruce Willis, the deep sea driller, solve the asteroid problem rather than putting actual NASA astronauts on the thing.
To be fair, the entire premise of that wretched film was that they needed people with that specific expertise to go there and do it...they didn't have time to train up actual astronauts.
I think even Bruce Willis asked "Wouldn't it just easier to train astronauts to do the drilling?" and was shushed by the director.
Actually, there is no evidence that all of the experts ever believed that the earth was flat. Some may have done so, but most throughout history, including in the Middle Ages, knew that the earth was a sphere. This was based upon observation - sailors noted the curvature of the earth when on the open sea, and folks who climbed high enough mountains, or even trees, also noted that.
Your point is valid, however, logic and facts aren't valid, or anyone's beliefs, feelings, or what-have-you, are as valid as anyone else's facts and logic. Scientists are know-it-alls, and it's always fun when they get their comeuppance. In many movies, "scientists" are quite unethical when conducting experiments, even if their goals are worthy. Hollywood is no friend to logic and facts.
I think it is at ca. 14 miles out to sea where tall ships 'disappear'...And next time you're at the beach scan the ocean horizon quickly all the way from one side to the other and you notice the curve. it is DEFINITELY NOT flat...
I think way back when, the VAST majority of human beings didn't even give the CONCEPT of a 'planet' one thought or the other. For the majority of human existence, people weren't even AWARE that there WERE other people in places they couldn't have imagined. The 'shape' of the world just wasn't something that anyone other than a VERY FEW intellectuals would wonder about
That’s a good point. The “mad scientist” character in fiction is played for laughs in comedies, and as a threat to humanity in darker movies. It really has been part of the evolving cultural perception of scientists and other highly educated folks as untrustworthy and insufferable know-it-alls who lack a “common sense” approach to life.
Oh yeah, even during the Greek ages the scientists realized it was round, though they differed on approximate size. But to the "just asking questions" crowd, the "experts" in the past were wrong about things, so why listen to "experts" now? Maybe they're wrong again!
They don't realize that science is cumulative...You don't have to reestablish the theory of heliocentrism from scratch every time you point a deep space telescope at the new black hole you found...you don't have to reestablish the entire theory of evolution every time you find an intriguing fossil.
You know, it's depressing that fictional know-nothingism is now our reality. I assume too that since social media as we know it didn't exist in 1995, the Phoebes couldn't band together and metastasize. And Republicans hadn't figured out how to channel this yet. They did now and it's an extremely important part of their rightwing media human centipede.
After all, for the Phoebes, this is a good way to get one up on those eggheads and nerds who "think" they're smarter than you. And conspiracy thinking and woo make you feel special. You're not like everyone else when you believe that fluoride in the concentrations it exists in tap water is the worst thing ever. You're part of a unique club!
The brilliant analogies in this article made me weep a little bit, because it is true. And well this was the clear preference of those who voted, as we now fight to bring our health care back to the 1800s or earlier. (For the regular people; the rich will still have their vaccinations and top-of-the-line health care)
yup...I'm liking the internet less and less the older I get. I think it's behind ALL or our problems in some way or the other...per your post
"I assume too that since social media as we know it didn't exist in 1995, the Phoebes couldn't band together and metastasize."
and THERE it is...A way for lonely antisocial people to FIND each other whereas BEFORE there was no mechanism to DO that, and that inability was a GOOD THING...Also, internet connections are much more manageable for antisocial types who can limit the time spent with each other as well...Because remember, they don't like EACH OTHER either. But the internet create a kind of solidarity that works for them
As a child of the 50s and 60s, I remember the great fluoridated-water debate. IIRC, there also was no such thing as fluoride toothpaste, which meant Cavity City Terror Time at the dentist. That changed gradually once we added fluoride to the water, and drillings and fillings decreased. My kids had very little experience with tooth decay, and my 14-year-old granddaughter has had nary a one.
I wonder if there is a name for this effect; there was an example of this in COVID where the more people became vaccinated, the less severe the outbreaks got and so it went away from recent mind. This has happened with a lot of childhood illnesses.
I grew up before the chickenpox vaccine, for example. Getting chickenpox SUCKED. Obviously much better than if you're an adult though.
vaccines=victim of it's own success
I remember having chicken pox, mumps, and German measles when I was a child. A couple of elementary-school classmates wore heavy leg braces because of polio. These were awful diseases, which were studied and then eradicated by scientific research and development. And yes, it’s like the further in time we move away from those Eureka! moments, the more eager we are to disappear them, along with the problems they solved, as a bad dream we never want to think about anymore. So we don’t, until they rear their ugly heads again.
I guess that’s one of those times when America was “great!” How awful.
Anti-elitism will always have an advantage because even the elites hate the elites.
I blame the MSM for the dumbing down of America. They sanewashed not just trump, but RFK the Lesser, and other crackpots to the extent that many think that they are right, and the real scientists and real experts are wrong.
Didn’t Phoebe also think a picture of Einstein was her grandfather? Back in the ‘90s I thought she was so extremely misinformed that no one could believe it possible to be like that in real life. At worst, she was an extended dumb blonde joke. Now that we know 48% of America is like her or even more deluded, I think we need the Phoebe who could only go to a concert if the seats were further away than the band’s restraining order against her.
What worries me is that in the big tradeoff where Democrats are winning voters of reason and Republicans are winning voters of dumbassery, Republicans will be getting the majority.
Obviously Democrats shouldn't surrender to dumbassery like Jared Polis thinks they should, but there has to be a way to win despite this.
Brian Tyler Cohen announced "Chorus Media," maybe that is a chance. Unlike Air America and Current, it's going to be an attempt to level the playing field in the online space by uniting progressive media creators.
And this is a battle we have to fight on the online streets with those we know personally. Asking a lot of "why" and using the Socratic method is probably our only defense. Because the thing about conspiracy thinking and what leads to cults is, usually the victim has to get themselves out of it. They have to wean themselves from the dopamine source, because the way conspiracy content is monetized now really incentivizes identifying with and attaching to it. And that is a tough row to hoe.
Gotta figure something out. And of course a lot comes down to creating our own communication channels. You can never win over people when they're getting the message from your opponents.
Like BTC has also been pointing out, Democratic politicians need to treat progressive podcasts as legitimate too and go on them more.
He's right, but Dem politicians need to call out the MSM for their clear RW bias.
I love Portland but your description is spot on.