Hm. I wasn't aware of this story. Interesting to see the Mark Waid run where Reed takes over Latveria following Doom's death and runs afoul of the UN and US government as a sort of commentary on this story. In that one, Waid seems to want to dismantle all of these arguments and show that life under Doom was no paradise and that freedom has value. though, overall, Mark Waid seems to really hate Doom and resent the idea of Victor being noble at all. Which is a fine take on the character but runs in contrast to most writers who use him
Doom is cool. He's an evil tyrant, but he cuts through the "noble" bullshit of heroes who do shitty things, like Charles Xavier. He's hilariously petty with Reed in a way that you wanna say, "Just get a room already!" sometimes. And he does have a warped code of honor he holds himself to and will listen to logic.
Marvel has a few good villains because you can almost agree with them, but then they do horrible things and remember why they're the villain.
You will see the kind of nostalgia for dictatorship shown in that comic in the former Yugoslavia- perhaps less so now than in the nineties or early thousands where a state holding onto the name still existed-but it exists. There's still graffiti praising Tito around the countries that used to make it up, for instance.
One of the things I think needs to be understood more in countries like the US (especially) but also the UK and other democracies is that strongman leaders, dictators and illiberal, repressive regimes do actually have appeal that can be understood. It's not a mystery why these people can get into power, and it's not a mystery how they can remain there. "Freedom" is great, if you have enough to eat and a home. Flag waving is one of the many reasons people like that strongman who can make their country something that, on the surface at least, somewhere the world respects.
The family lore is that Tito was after my great grandfather, who had fought against him in the war (he was a monarchist) and was, according to family lore, a big man in the local anticommunists in Kosovo. Tito was known to send assassins around the world to hunt down enemies of his regime, and he ran at least one prison camp off the coast of Croatia where people were basically left to die. By the end of her life, though, my grandma- the daughter of that great grandfather- was harking back to the golden age of Tito and wishing he would come back.
I was entirely unaware of this arc in FF. It's true that I largely ignored FF even though I was a comics nerd and a Marvel nerd at that. And it's true that I loved Byrne for his X-Men work. But FF had always turned me off.
I don't want to retcon myself as perfectly noble and not having bought in to sexism and racism of the end-70s when I first discovered comic books. I didn't reject whiteness or masculinity. But... I was called to identify with the outsiders, and the FF were not that. Captain America was the insider jock, and though he himself was always looking out for the little guy, he reminded me too much of the people who loathed and bullied me. Wolverine didn't speak to me because he seemed (at the time I encountered him) like someone that the insiders wanted as an insider, but he chose not to join them. Thor was a quintessential insider, but I liked him because I'd been reading mythology since I was 5 or 6. (Hamilton over Bullfinch, obviously.) In my eyes, he also got a boost from the Beta Ray Bill saga where he gets some outsider experience.
It was Black Panther, Cloak & Dagger some of the X-Men, most of the New Mutants, some of the PowerMan/Luke Cage stories -- these were the characters that spoke to me.
So even when Byrne went to FF, I didn't follow. I did read the issue where the mind-controlled Sue Storm trashed the other 3. (Spiking her force field to maximum surface area to stress the limits of Reed's stretching power and knock him out of the fight was, I thought, a particularly nice touch.) But on the whole... not my thing.
It's interesting to read about this now and speculate how I might have felt reading it at 11 years old. I suspect it wouldn't have resonated much b/c it would have simply challenged my ability to wilfully believe in the world and its characters. It seems quite Reaganite. While I wasn't anti-Reagan in 1982 (though ask me again in 84/85), that was more a lack of thinking about this than it was agreement with (or even grudging acceptance of) his worldview. Honestly, it makes me wonder about Byrne's politics (of which I know nothing).
Since I was already not that into FF, had I read this at the time (at a friend's house or having been given the issue(s), or however) I think my most likely response would have just been to put down the book as not making sense to me and without characters that emotionally resonated.
Anyway, thank you for an interesting side trip, SER. Like you, I'm curious as to how this will all play out on the big screen.
Byrne's anti-Trump -- last I checked -- but otherwise his politics are pretty socially regressive, especially for trans people. (Just trust me on that. Please don't look up anything he's said.)
His Avengers run focused on splitting up the Scarlet Witch and Vision because he refused to recognize the Vision's humanity (the whole point of the character) and insisted that he was "just a machine." So obviously Wanda was an insane woman who "married her dildo."
Anyone who was annoyed by the “Killmonger was right” or “Thanos had a point” takes had best prepare themselves for a worst-case scenario if Marvel is able to put a compelling RDJ Doom on screen. “Hmm, maybe this benevolent despot thing has an upside…”
Marvel's First Family is among my top three Marvel comics. Doom's schemes for world domination are always delightful in their complexity. And his ego is—well—comically over the top. His latest attempt in Ryan North's take on the characters was to ally himself with alternative dimension T-Rex Doctor Doom and where he was ultimately taken down Ben Grimm—not by clobbering—but by turning the two Doom's against each other with a simple nudge to their maniacal ambition.
I don't know if there is a political parable is this latest story (I tend to read that back in on a third or forth reading), but with the news talking of Trump and an electro-shark, there may be a touch of prescience in North's fable.
This comic sounds more like a early teen's conflicted relationship with their parents than any conception of politics, or should I say, oedipus shmedipus, as long as they love their country
I don't think Trump isn't very smart in ways that most people would correlate "intelligence" and "smart". But he's got some feral cunning and knows how to zero in on people's weaknesses. He's used that to his advantage - look at the litter of destruction that has followed him. One man wrecking crew, ETTD. If the people of this country are dumb enough to vote him back in as president it will be one of the biggest self-owns in world history.
This IS why you have your own blog, you renaissance man! I only remember Fantastic Four from the cartoons in the early 70s or late 60s? Can’t recall. I had no idea it was political. It seems to me like this is a lesson we don’t want in 2024, though I will 100% be seeing it.
Hm. I wasn't aware of this story. Interesting to see the Mark Waid run where Reed takes over Latveria following Doom's death and runs afoul of the UN and US government as a sort of commentary on this story. In that one, Waid seems to want to dismantle all of these arguments and show that life under Doom was no paradise and that freedom has value. though, overall, Mark Waid seems to really hate Doom and resent the idea of Victor being noble at all. Which is a fine take on the character but runs in contrast to most writers who use him
Doom is cool. He's an evil tyrant, but he cuts through the "noble" bullshit of heroes who do shitty things, like Charles Xavier. He's hilariously petty with Reed in a way that you wanna say, "Just get a room already!" sometimes. And he does have a warped code of honor he holds himself to and will listen to logic.
Marvel has a few good villains because you can almost agree with them, but then they do horrible things and remember why they're the villain.
You will see the kind of nostalgia for dictatorship shown in that comic in the former Yugoslavia- perhaps less so now than in the nineties or early thousands where a state holding onto the name still existed-but it exists. There's still graffiti praising Tito around the countries that used to make it up, for instance.
One of the things I think needs to be understood more in countries like the US (especially) but also the UK and other democracies is that strongman leaders, dictators and illiberal, repressive regimes do actually have appeal that can be understood. It's not a mystery why these people can get into power, and it's not a mystery how they can remain there. "Freedom" is great, if you have enough to eat and a home. Flag waving is one of the many reasons people like that strongman who can make their country something that, on the surface at least, somewhere the world respects.
The family lore is that Tito was after my great grandfather, who had fought against him in the war (he was a monarchist) and was, according to family lore, a big man in the local anticommunists in Kosovo. Tito was known to send assassins around the world to hunt down enemies of his regime, and he ran at least one prison camp off the coast of Croatia where people were basically left to die. By the end of her life, though, my grandma- the daughter of that great grandfather- was harking back to the golden age of Tito and wishing he would come back.
Thanks for the thoughtful response!
I was entirely unaware of this arc in FF. It's true that I largely ignored FF even though I was a comics nerd and a Marvel nerd at that. And it's true that I loved Byrne for his X-Men work. But FF had always turned me off.
I don't want to retcon myself as perfectly noble and not having bought in to sexism and racism of the end-70s when I first discovered comic books. I didn't reject whiteness or masculinity. But... I was called to identify with the outsiders, and the FF were not that. Captain America was the insider jock, and though he himself was always looking out for the little guy, he reminded me too much of the people who loathed and bullied me. Wolverine didn't speak to me because he seemed (at the time I encountered him) like someone that the insiders wanted as an insider, but he chose not to join them. Thor was a quintessential insider, but I liked him because I'd been reading mythology since I was 5 or 6. (Hamilton over Bullfinch, obviously.) In my eyes, he also got a boost from the Beta Ray Bill saga where he gets some outsider experience.
It was Black Panther, Cloak & Dagger some of the X-Men, most of the New Mutants, some of the PowerMan/Luke Cage stories -- these were the characters that spoke to me.
So even when Byrne went to FF, I didn't follow. I did read the issue where the mind-controlled Sue Storm trashed the other 3. (Spiking her force field to maximum surface area to stress the limits of Reed's stretching power and knock him out of the fight was, I thought, a particularly nice touch.) But on the whole... not my thing.
It's interesting to read about this now and speculate how I might have felt reading it at 11 years old. I suspect it wouldn't have resonated much b/c it would have simply challenged my ability to wilfully believe in the world and its characters. It seems quite Reaganite. While I wasn't anti-Reagan in 1982 (though ask me again in 84/85), that was more a lack of thinking about this than it was agreement with (or even grudging acceptance of) his worldview. Honestly, it makes me wonder about Byrne's politics (of which I know nothing).
Since I was already not that into FF, had I read this at the time (at a friend's house or having been given the issue(s), or however) I think my most likely response would have just been to put down the book as not making sense to me and without characters that emotionally resonated.
Anyway, thank you for an interesting side trip, SER. Like you, I'm curious as to how this will all play out on the big screen.
Byrne's anti-Trump -- last I checked -- but otherwise his politics are pretty socially regressive, especially for trans people. (Just trust me on that. Please don't look up anything he's said.)
His Avengers run focused on splitting up the Scarlet Witch and Vision because he refused to recognize the Vision's humanity (the whole point of the character) and insisted that he was "just a machine." So obviously Wanda was an insane woman who "married her dildo."
LOL. What a maroon.
Anyone who was annoyed by the “Killmonger was right” or “Thanos had a point” takes had best prepare themselves for a worst-case scenario if Marvel is able to put a compelling RDJ Doom on screen. “Hmm, maybe this benevolent despot thing has an upside…”
Marvel's First Family is among my top three Marvel comics. Doom's schemes for world domination are always delightful in their complexity. And his ego is—well—comically over the top. His latest attempt in Ryan North's take on the characters was to ally himself with alternative dimension T-Rex Doctor Doom and where he was ultimately taken down Ben Grimm—not by clobbering—but by turning the two Doom's against each other with a simple nudge to their maniacal ambition.
I don't know if there is a political parable is this latest story (I tend to read that back in on a third or forth reading), but with the news talking of Trump and an electro-shark, there may be a touch of prescience in North's fable.
This comic sounds more like a early teen's conflicted relationship with their parents than any conception of politics, or should I say, oedipus shmedipus, as long as they love their country
I don't think Trump isn't very smart in ways that most people would correlate "intelligence" and "smart". But he's got some feral cunning and knows how to zero in on people's weaknesses. He's used that to his advantage - look at the litter of destruction that has followed him. One man wrecking crew, ETTD. If the people of this country are dumb enough to vote him back in as president it will be one of the biggest self-owns in world history.
This IS why you have your own blog, you renaissance man! I only remember Fantastic Four from the cartoons in the early 70s or late 60s? Can’t recall. I had no idea it was political. It seems to me like this is a lesson we don’t want in 2024, though I will 100% be seeing it.